Posts by Jofi

24

The Holy Spirit

by Acer21 in

if the holy spirit is an "active force", how can it be grieved (ephesians 4:30)?.

in other words, according to the jw's, one can make jehovah's "force" sorrowful?

this is an example of how the jw leaders have perverted the gospel in translation, and have put the jw's in a position in which they must perform intellectual gymnastics in order to maintain their false position.

Jofi_Wofo

Wow, caves. Thank you for sharing your experience. You've done a tremendous job recovering from such awful circumstances.

3

No more handwashing for JW's

by FedUpJW in

i was watching a program prompted by the covid-19 scare about youngsters in kindergarten and first grade being taught how to properly wash their hands to get rid of germs.

they were told that twenty seconds was needed, and that to time it they should sing the "happy birthday" song twice.. well i guess we all know that jw's will never be able to sing that song, so i guess they will have to teach their kids how to "take a stand for da troof" and tell their teachers they cannot was their hands anymore.. just think of all the 'periences they can cook up about caleb got the corona-virus and was oh so sick, but he took a stand against one of those pagan celebration inspired songs, and his teacher and several classmates all asked for watchtowers and studies.

hahahaha!.

Jofi_Wofo

JW's should reject hand washing for the same reasons they reject birthdays:

1) There is not a single example of any worshiper of Jehovah washing his or her own hands in the Bible. The only examples of hand washing in the Bible are from people who did not do what was right in Jehovah's eyes.

2) Jesus is the model whose footsteps we should follow closely. Jesus didn't wash his hands, so would it really be appropriate to wash our own?

3) Ritual hand washing has its origins in false religion, and while most people no longer associate it with religious practice, Jehovah does not forget its origins and we must do all things for his glory.

4) While the Bible does not outright forbid hand washing, it doesn't put hand washing in a positive light.

They should also reject it for the same reason why they reject political involvement:

1) The Bible tells us that it is through God's kingdom alone that all disease will be done away with. All other attempts at reducing diseases stand in opposition to Jehovah's will and exist to do nothing more than turn people away from worshiping him.

2) True Christians are to be no part of the world. Could we really claim that we were upholding Christian neutrality if we engage in the same cleanliness practice as our unbelieving neighbors and relatives?

3) When Jesus was offered the chance to wash his hands, he turned it down, because he knew that cleanliness belonged to Jehovah alone.

Lastly, they should reject hand washing to prevent disease because it reinforces the LIE of evolution!

1) For any new diseases to exist would require positive mutations, which only occur extremely rarely, and quickly disappear from the populations from which they originate.

2) Fossils of ancient microorganisms show little to no variation over the course of several centuries.

3) If COVID-19 evolved into a more virulent they why do other, less virulent viruses still exist?

4) Could a virus so irreducibly complex have come about by random chance?!

36

I'm tired of the org misquoting scholars to support there heretical NWT

by yogosans14 in

day after day jws are constantly fighting with me over the internet that the nwt is the most accurate translation and then they prove it by quoting scholars from the watchtower magazines.

they tell me i'm biased and there rendering of john 1:1 as "a god" is approved by scholars but i have researched there so called "supporters" and i have found they have tooken what they said out of context to twist the scriptures to there liking.. .

dr. julius r. mantey (who is even recognized by the watchtower as a greek scholar since they quote his book on page 1158 of their kingdom interlinear translation): calls the watchtower translation of john 1:1 "a grossly misleading translation.

Jofi_Wofo

RE: "taking in knowledge" vs "coming to know you"

I don't know anything about ancient Greek, so I can't comment on the accuracy of either translation. I can, however, make one observation: the older NWT was significantly more literal than the current one. It might be accurate, literally, to say "taking in knowledge," but the second one might do a better job of conveying the meaning in contemporary terms. This is one reason why it's always good to look at multiple translations when trying to understand meaning. It's also why no matter how many translations you look at, you STILL might not find the answer you're looking for. (I have quite the doozy of a thread coming up soon where I tackle one verse in particular in which each and every translation you look at says something so different that you often can't even tell that it's the same verse.)

36

I'm tired of the org misquoting scholars to support there heretical NWT

by yogosans14 in

day after day jws are constantly fighting with me over the internet that the nwt is the most accurate translation and then they prove it by quoting scholars from the watchtower magazines.

they tell me i'm biased and there rendering of john 1:1 as "a god" is approved by scholars but i have researched there so called "supporters" and i have found they have tooken what they said out of context to twist the scriptures to there liking.. .

dr. julius r. mantey (who is even recognized by the watchtower as a greek scholar since they quote his book on page 1158 of their kingdom interlinear translation): calls the watchtower translation of john 1:1 "a grossly misleading translation.

Jofi_Wofo

believe it's a terrible thing for a person to be deceived and go into eternity lost, forever lost because somebody deliberately misled him by distorting the Scripture!. . . hey should not allow themselves to be misled by the Jehovah's Witnesses and end up in hell." (Ron Rhodes "Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses" p.103-105)

Well, damn. Imagine being so hateful and petty that you think that people who disagree with your interpretation deserve to be sent to hell. Imagine believing that God is so stubborn and weak that he can't allow for sincere people to have misunderstandings or to inadvertently draw false conclusions on incorrect but seemingly authoritative information. Imagine believing that God deliberately created us with all of the cognitive biases that make it extremely hard to believe the right thing, and then will punish us for failing to believe the right thing.

To quickly address some of the comments in this thread:

- It's not polytheistic in the Biblical sense to consider Jesus a god, given all of the other people and entities that are also called gods. God, like many words in the Bible, has so many different meanings that the Bible, itself, even addresses this topic on a few occasions. (John 10:34-36, 1 Cor 8:5,6 - note in particular what it says about the FATHER being the one God, not the trinity nor Jesus).

- It's not contradictory to refer to Jesus as an angel (Michael) and as a god. First, see my reasoning above. Secondly, the Bible uses the word gods (Hebrew, "elohim") to refer to angels (compare Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7). Third, Jesus is both referred to as a god (again, John 1:1, depending on which scholar or theologian or dogmatic zealot you choose to believe is correct.) as well as described as having the voice of an archangel (1 Thes 4:16).

Whether Jesus and Michael are actually the same person is a topic I've yet to revisit, but I do remember some years ago finding significantly more Biblical evidence for it than even the WTB&TS publishes.

In any case, unless anyone has compelling evidence that the Bible actually is God's word (I don't see any such evidence anymore...), I'm inclined to believe that there is no correct interpretation of the "true" identity of Yahweh, El, Michael, Jesus or the holy spirit because not even the writers agreed on what they were trying to say.

24

The Holy Spirit

by Acer21 in

if the holy spirit is an "active force", how can it be grieved (ephesians 4:30)?.

in other words, according to the jw's, one can make jehovah's "force" sorrowful?

this is an example of how the jw leaders have perverted the gospel in translation, and have put the jw's in a position in which they must perform intellectual gymnastics in order to maintain their false position.

Jofi_Wofo

Ok...

And if the holy spirit is a person, how can it be poured out (Acts 10:45) and how could it have been INSIDE Stephen (Acts 7:55)?

Answer? Sometimes the Bible personifies objects (psalm 66:4) and abstract concepts (proverbs 8:1) and sometimes it objectifies people (psalm 16:8, Matthew 16:18). What's symbolic? What's literal? Sometimes the text gives us clues, but sometimes it doesn't and we just have to make our own best guesses.

We should be careful not to use a single proof text to try to make a scriptural point (you know, like those JWs like to do?), because context, literary style, challenges of translation and issues of personal interpretation will always cloud our abilities to fully grasp any Biblical concept. Oh, and may we not forget that all of that assumes to begin with that the Bible is actually a cohesive book with no conceptual contradictions and not just an anthology of loosely related myths, poems and historical fiction.

In other words, for much of what the Bible teaches, there is no correct or incorrect interpretation and it's entirely unproductive to say that someone who disagrees with your conclusion is perverting or deliberately deceiving.

There are plenty of problems with the organization, practices and teachings of JWs that make an actual real-world difference in people's lives. We can always disagree and debate doctrinal interpretation, but it is HIGHLY unproductive to say that every disagreement is further proof of malice on their part.That is, in fact, what had originally caused me to not take detractors and apostates seriously. If they call us liars and deceivers for not accepting the Trinity, how can I take them seriously when they claim we're liars and decievers for teaching that Jesus began reigning in 1914 (an actual verifiably wrong teaching that actually has a tremendously negative impact on the lives of millions).

Even on the Trinity front, there is more damning evidence of deception, such as not always adding Jehovah in New Testament quotations of Old Testament scriptures that have the tetragrammaton. I STILL think the Bible writers never intended to teach the divinity of Jesus, but that's an insanely dishonest thing to do.

30

Will you attend the Memorial 2020 ? - Covid-19 (Coronavirus)

by bats in the belfry in

... or rather listen to the advice on their jw news website:.

show love to others.

while we all know the importance of attending christian meetings and participating in the public ministry, if you are sick, it is best to stay home to avoid infecting others.

Jofi_Wofo

Yes, I will.

I'm on my way out, but not fully there yet. It hurts me to see my wife so disappointed, so I'm going to be there by her side until she gets used to the idea that I'm no longer a believer. Or, at least, until I just can't take it anymore.

I'm not afraid of COVID-19. Of course, I don't want to get sick, but unless it mutates and becomes more deadly, I think people are wildly overreacting.

By all means, take measures to protect children and the elderly in affected areas, but we shouldn't feel the need to completely dismantle our way of life for a virus that most people can lick in a few days with mild symptoms.

18

Do you think any of the GB have different beliefs?

by neat blue dog in

do you think any higher ups know that much of the doctrine they teach is bunk?

thinking back to the time of raymond franz, how he pointed out specifically numerous teachings that the churches really did have right all along, and really any of the hidden mic apostacy trials you listen to on youtube, you see that even when inconvenient bible teachings are proven, the elders just try to sweep it under the rug and move on.

i think i remember franz saying how one of the gb approached him somewhat sympathetically, but there was nothing he could do.. whether you believe in the bible or not, there are some basic beliefs common among most denominations because they're just so plainly stated, such things as heavenly life for all christians, no central authority structure, minimal use of god's name, etc.

Jofi_Wofo

I wonder how much of ANYTHING they actually believe. What sense does it make to believe that you are appointed by holy spirit by others who were appointed by holy spirit, but that the very people who appointed you by holy spirit we're WRONG about almost everything else they said and did?

How could you seriously think they would be right about picking YOU when they were wrong about prophesy, doctrine, medical directives, organizational arrangements, ministry arrangements, public relations campaigns, publication tone, style, content matter etc. ad infinitum?

Are they just as deluded as the people they lead (yes, including me for several years... ) or are they doing it on purpose?

49

The Coronavirus Is Trump’s Fault!

by minimus in

jw
friends

yes, it’s donald trump’s problem and he has no idea of how to take care of this!

and he gets his vp mike pence to oversee this situation.

donald trump doesn’t care about who could get this virus.

Jofi_Wofo

There are an unusually high number of Trump supporters on this forum. I wonder what the correlation is between leaving JWs and joining Team Trump.

I enjoy the way he throws the left's sanctimoniousness right back in their face, and I appreciate that he hasn't destroyed the country with his policies like the mainstream press claimed he would. But, he also has a lot of ye olde governing body untouchableness to him. No matter what he says, no matter what he does, he's always right and everyone else his wrong. Even when he flat out contradicts something he previously said. No, he didn't change his mind. No, he wasn't wrong before and right now or wrong now and right before. He was right both times and will be right again when he says something different next time!

I can understand being a fan of his accomplishments, but I can't understand being a supporter of his as a human being.

16

Just one foot in...

by Jofi_Wofo in

...with one foot out.. *deep breath*.

from day one, i've felt like i was one foot out of this religion, but it took me until over a decade to reach the point where i am ready to move on.

i'm a newly registered user to this site.

Jofi_Wofo

A couple weeks ago, I finally told my wife that I no longer believe in the Bible. I refrained from giving her the full details- that I already planned my complete exit and that this is more than just a lack of faith, but a complete rejection of everything the organization is and ever was.

My wife was very understanding and supportive. Much more than I expected. Unfortunately, she felt the need to call the elders over. Call me a fool, but I love her so much I have trouble saying no to her, so I sat and talked with them.

They were extremely supportive and polite. When the time is right, I'll return to this thread and recap in more detail what went down. Basically, they just asked me some questions and wanted to hear me out. They tried to refute some of my arguments, but ultimately conceded that I had good points, that I had a right to question faith and require evidence. They also we're understanding how hard it must be to lose faith in something that was a huge part of my life for many years.

They're all of the mindset that I will "figure it out" and be restored in due time, but none of them know just how far I'm gone. For now, I let them know that I don't feel comfortable preaching anymore, and they agreed that it wouldn't make sense to teach something I don't believe in.

Wheeeew. There are so many ways it could have gone, most of them much poorly than it did. For now, I'm accompanying my wife to the meetings just to be her companion and because I don't feel safe with her going out alone at night during the midweek meeting. When we move from here, we'll be in a safer area and I'll drop my meeting attendance.

Which leads me to the absolutely delicious question: Will this memorial be my last?

https://i0.wp.com/jwsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/last-memorial-paragraph.jpg?ssl=1

5

Publication 'Simple Swaps'

by Jofi_Wofo in

there are a number of wtb&ts publications that are quite useful in doing research, but would be significantly better if they weren't theologically and self-servingly biased.

i'd like to find more reliable substitutions, especially from scholarly/secular sources, to help me, and others, get a look at the bible from a fresh perspective.

here's a short list of "cool" books i'd like for which id like to find corresponding replacements.. new world translation of the holy scriptures w/references = ?

Jofi_Wofo

There are a number of WTB&TS publications that are quite useful in doing research, but would be significantly better if they weren't theologically and self-servingly biased. I'd like to find more reliable substitutions, especially from scholarly/secular sources, to help me, and others, get a look at the Bible from a fresh perspective. Here's a short list of "cool" books I'd like for which Id like to find corresponding replacements.

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures w/References = ? (good/best Bible translations in English with footnotes, cross-references and glossary)

What can the Bible Teach Us? = ?

All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial = ?

Insight on the Scriptures = ?

My Book of Bible Stories = ?

The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived = ?

Revelation: its Climax at Hand = ?

Life, How did it Get Here? By Evolution or Creation? = ? (best books that compare biblical creationism to actual science)

This could be a start of a longer list if any of you have other ideas, but I think that these examples alone could be enough information for a lifetime of study.

Jofi_Wofo

Posts by Jofi_Wofo