Posts by Recovery

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

ChristAlones argument basically comes down to this: Sparlock is not a real wizard, a real practicer of magic, so therefore its okay and perfectly acceptable in God's eyes to have such a toy.

But how many of us would play with oojiua boards? How many of us could honestly see nothing wrong with little children dressing up as wizards and demons and goblins and devils for Halloween? How many of us would sit down and watch a gory, bloody, extremely sadistic violent film and say, oh there's nothing wrong with that. It's just FANTASY. These things aren't REALLY happening.

This type of reasoning is faulty and as ChristAlone has repeatedly called this discussion, retardedness.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Well I guess we should celebrate Halloween and get dressed up and pretend to be demons and ghosts and witches and psychics and wizards because they are simply fantasy, and are not attributed to real spirits.

I guess we should all play with oojiua boards since they are simply fantasy and are not attributed to real spirits.

I guess we should watch goory, blood spilling, horror flicks that depict brutal murder, torture, rape, and violence simply because they are fantasy and are not attributed to real spirits/people.

I guess anything goes and God's laws don't apply because pretty much everything in our entertainment today is attributed to fantasy and not real, historical events.

So who's going trick or treating this year?

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Well I guess we should celebrate Halloween and get dressed up and pretend to be demons and ghosts and witches and psychics and wizards because they are simply fantasy, and are not attributed to real spirits.

I guess we should all play with oojiua boards since they are simply fantasy and are not attributed to real spirits.

I guess we should watch goory, blood spilling, horror flicks that depict brutal murder, torture, rape, and violence simply because they are fantasy and are not attributed to real spirits/people.

I guess anything goes and God's laws don't apply because pretty much everything in our entertainment today is attributed to fantasy and not real, historical events.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Deuteronomy 18:10 "There should not be found in you anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic.."

Is a slight of hand performer a practice of magic? Yes or no?

Jehovah does not expressedly condemn all forms of magic (as far as we know). Someone could say flying cartoons are magical by nature. Someone could say a talking animal in a movie is magical. We cannot for sure say a certain thing is condemned/disapproved of by God because the magical practices mentioned in the Bible are not all encompassing. That is why it is a conscience matter.

I have no problems watching cartoons, certain disney movies (like the Lion King), or even movies like Superman or Batman. These do not violate my conscience. For another Christian, they could be considered magical and thus something that should not watched. This is why you won't see the Watchtower comment too much on this (as it does specific areas like pornography and masturbation) because there is a gray area where each individual's own conscience must decide.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Please point out where I have stated that Jehovah condemns all forms of magic 'as we know them'. That is something that I made distinctly clear in one of my earlier posts. I emphasized that the type of magic that Jehovah condemns is explicitly outlined in the Bible. Hence, supernatural showings such as a human flying, a talking orge, or a princess being turned into a frog are not objectionable from the Bible's viewpoint. Once we go outside of specific mentions of what is condemned as magic, then it is up to each individual to decide what their conscience allows. It is similar to blood. We know that we are to abstain from blood. Once blood is broken down into its four primary components, it is still considered blood by medical professionals. Once those components are broken down into fractions then it is up to each individual to decide. I know that "MAGIC IN ENGLISH" encompasses more than what was meant when it was written in Hebrew, and that is why I made the distinction. Did you even read my post?

Do you turn off ANYTHING that has magic in it, Recovery?

No, I turn off anything that displays magic in a manner that is condemned by Jehovah in his word.

What about Pinochio?

I don't recall much about Pinnochio but I would not from the top of my head say that it's objectionable.

Lord of the Rings has to do with magic. Do you turn that off?

Yes, it promotes much wizardry and spell casting and sorcery which are all condemned forms of magic.

What about someone that "performs" magic in Vegas? Is that too condemned? Would you walk away from that?

Yes, because the Bible condemns the practice of magic.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Hmmm, why is there something wrong with Caleb's toy? Oh, I don't know. Perhaps because it's called Sparlock: The Warrior Wizard

Questions: Is wizardry a form of spiritism/magic as condemned in the Bible? Yes or no. Does it show a hatred and a respect for what Jehovah hates to carry a toy that perpretrates something that he finds detestable? Yes or no.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

One of the easiest ways to find out the meaning of a particular word is to look up a thesarus and find a long list of synonyms that have similar meaning to it. Let's do this again with the word "magic"

Magic: " alchemy, allurement,astrology, augury, bewitchment,black art, conjuring, conjury, devilry, diabolism,divination,enchantment, exorcism,fascination, foreboding, fortune-telling, hocuspocus, horoscopy, illusion, incantation, legerdemain, magnetism, necromancy, occultism, of impossible feats by tricks abracadabra,power, prediction, presage, prestidigitation, prophecy, rune, sleight of hand, soothsaying, sorcery, sortilege, spell, superstition, taboo, thaumaturgy,trickery, voodoo, voodooism, witchcraft, wizardry, Satanism, demon worship,

Do the synonyms honestly convey a similar list of synonyms you'd expect when you type in the word "miracle"? If no, why not? If it does not, then the two terms are distinctive and not interchangeable.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Awww common recovery... Its a simple question: how do you describe the differance between moses rod turing to a snake and pharos priests rod's turning to snakes?

Because of the SOURCE behind the supernatural repercussions that caused the event to take place. This is exactly why Jwfacts use of Bible accounts is defined as a false analogy: "an assumed similarity between two things, people, or situations when in fact the two things being compared are not similar in the manner invoked."

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Caliber said: "The major difference between magic and miracles seems to be intent , purpose and source.

Magic intends to astonish..to focus attention on power itself . Bible miracles were to address

real needs of people."

Excellent. I am glad some one else has gotten the point.

"

Christ Alone said: You have to consider the context. When the word "magic" was used, it was not refering to fantasy or fantastic stories. It was refering to the use of "real" magic" as practiced by those that were under the infulence of evil. Whether you believe in evil spirits like the devil or not, this is what the scriptures were speaking about. JWs speak out against magic. But how many of them have watched "The Wizard of Oz"? I went and saw Lord of the Ring while I was at bethel with a bunch of other bethelites. But lets dig down deeper and consider what really IS magic. Is it just something that is unnatural and uncanny as has been brought out? Are super heros "magic"? It is not natural to have the power to fly. It is unnatural to turn invisible. Why is that NOT magic? How bout certain sci fi elements? IT is not natural to travel through time. See, the JWs have a problem here with simple hermeneutics. They do not consider the audience that the scriptures were written to. They don't consider the culture. They don't consider what was really being taught. Similarly, the forbiding of magic was written to Israellites that existed around nations that used the spirit realm and it's powers to fight against God. There has been some back and forth that "Magic" is the same as "Miracles"....or at least similar. I will agree with that. True magic is using the unseen spirit world to cause effects in the physical world. God can do the same. The JW concept of the holy spirit seems to line up with magic. I'll admit that. They don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. They think it's a force. Well, if they were honest, magic TOO is a force. But fantasy is different from reality. We call slight of hand "MAGIC". We call inspiration "MAGIC" (as in the magic of disney). We call fantasy "magic". Is THAT sort of magic ALSO condemned by God. I think not. He was speaking about using the opposing evil world of Satan and the demons to effect a change in they physical realm. That is my stand.

The distinction between "magic" (in general) and specific types of magic (or unexplained supernatural events we see today) are explained in the Bible. We cannot just look at the Bible and say well, this is talking about the Israelites, not us. This is talking about eating animal blood only, and should not be applied to ingesting blood for nutrition via blood transfusion. The Bible is not a book of laws that is suited to every specific case and every specific situation, because it would be a never-ending, constantly growing encyclopedia of do's and don'ts. What we have in the Bible are principles that will last to time indefinite. God does not change and his principles will never change. No when JW's are talking about the condemnation of magic we are not talking about things such as a talking lion or a flying human or a talking ogre. Yes these are supernatural events. But magic is not simply supernatural events. The type of magic condemned in the Bible are not simply supernatural events. We know what specific types of magic are not pleasing to Jehovah because he specifically names them. Foretelling events, sorcery, divination, consulting the dead, casting spells, use of a spirit medium, and so forth are expressly defined as forms of magic and are condemned.

Notice the list of synonyms in relation to the word magic:

astrology,augury, bewitchment,black art,conjuring, conjury, devilry,diabolism,divination,enchantment,exorcism,fascination, foreboding, fortune-telling, hocuspocus, horoscopy, illusion, incantation,legerdemain,magnetism,necromancy, occultism, of impossiblefeats by tricks abracadabra,power, prediction,presage, prestidigitation,prophecy, rune, sleightofhand,soothsaying,sorcery,sortilege, spell, superstition,taboo, thaumaturgy,trickery, voodoo,voodooism,witchcraft,wizardry

You will never get these terms when you look up the word "miracle" in a dictionary. The only thing that connects them is the use of a SUPERNATURAL FORCE. However, the source of that supernatural force is what makes one acceptable and one condemned.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Another post that has still yet to be addressed:

To those who are lurking, please go here: http://thesaurus.com/browse/miracle?page=1&qsrc=121 . It is a thesarus that lists all the synonyms and words of similar nature for the word "miracle". These are the type of synonyms you get for miracle: marvel, phenomenon, portent, rarity, spectacle, paradox, wonder, shock, unexpected, unforeseen.." Notice out of more than 400 synonyms you never see the word magic or sorcery.

Now if you use the same website and you search the thesarus for the word "magic" (http://thesaurus.com/browse/magic?s=t) you never see the word miracle as a synonym. Also, see the type of synonyms that are listed in relation to magic: "psychic, black arts, occult, witchcraft, wizardry, Satanism, demon worship, voo doo, magic spell,.."

There is an obvious distinction between the two. As if Jehovah's words weren't enough, now we have man telling us there is a big distinction as well. Anyone who refuses to see the difference is just purposely ignoring the evidence.
.