Posts by Recovery

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

Maybe you can start by addressing the setting of Revelation 7. Or how the use of great crowd does not automatically correlate Revelation 7 and 19. Or how quoting various WT's to help your argument is simply fallacious. Or how your list of the ten terms specific to the anointed aren't really that specific at all.

I am glad onlookers can see how no one will address the points and most people are simply not interested 'in the truth about the truth'. This sums up the viewpoint of opposers of JW's. 'Me know a lot of stuff. Watchtower bad.' *proceeds to copy and paste an argument from jwfacts* and then *refuses* to change his/her viewpoint just as long as JW's are proven wrong, even if it means ignoring all other evidence.

But I do not do this for the sake of exJWs. I do this for the sake of JW's.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

I do not wish to get sidetracked into such a discussion about 607/1914. It is clearly not the subject of this thread and is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

So....373 views, 33 posts (9 of which from myself)...and no one has offered a rebuttal to my arguments. Who's really out of their league?

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

Rather be in hades, I believe both 607 and 1914 to be factual and scriptural dates. But I'd rather not change the subject.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

The article makes another erroneous statement. It states:

"The Watchtower describes its history of this doctrine with misleading statements to support their new light theory. For example the following quote makes it appear that many Bible Students felt they were in line for an earthly resurrection.
"Prior to the 1930's, many of God's people were somewhat uncertain about their hope for future life. Some had thoughts about heavenly life but were fascinated by Bible teachings about a paradise earth." Watchtower 2001 January 15 p. 1"

Yes there were many JW's that believed that they were of an earthly class (Jehonadabs) and that is why the WT mentions many were happy and surprised when the great crowd was revealed to be an earthly class. Other WT statements clearly show that the Bible Students had many expectations regarding the future of the earth.

"As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized."Millions Now Living Will Never Die p.89

"Hence these faithful men may be expected on earth within the next few years." The Harp of God p.340

The chief thing to be restored is the human race to life.... being resurrected and fully restored to perfect humanity and made the visible, legal representatives of the new order of things on earth."Millions Now Living Will Never Die p.88

Another inaccurate and misleading mischaracterization of what JW's believed.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

More ad hominem attacks. More rhetoric. More repetition of the same argument already addressed in post 4. Hey, here's a challenge for you sebastious, why don't you address what I've written previously:

However, throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures this term (translated as "great crowd") describes ANY large group of individuals. You cannot use a common descriptive term (great crowd) and use it as the basis for concluding that the two scriptures are referring to the same group of persons. As the scriptures show the term is very ambiguous and can be used in a variety of contexts, referring to any large group of people, even in the same book. John, the very author of Revelation does so in his gospel. Therefore, it would be no different for Revelation to refer to different great crowds. I am not arguing that it is definitely the case, I am simply arguing is that it is by no means a conclusive line of reasoning.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

Yes, nothing but the usual from mrsjones5. I am simply waiting for cedar to show up so they can began their 'troll clock running' posts. And maybe they can give us an exposition on their favorite soups and desserts this time to divert the topic. Maybe even copy and paste articles from Wikipedia. It is obvious certain people are not interested in truth. I do not do this for those who don't want the truth, but for the sake of mislead and lurking JW's.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

I will respond to a few points before continuing

NeverKnew asked what's my goal. My goal here is to help myself and other unwary/lurking JW's who have been temporarily mislead by the claims of ex JW's. By discussing Jwfacts I am going right to the core of pretty much every apostate argument which Jwfacts admitted to me was a contribution of many many individuals.

Elderelite asked a question. I am not ignoring you. I am not cutting and pasting anything (besides jwfacts own statements). I am typing all of this information as we speka. Your question/topic will be addressed in a future post. I am sorry if that the impression I gave off.

HintofLime merely tried to show us that Revelation must be incorrect since it describes the four corners of the earth as square, not realizing that these are symbolic and not to be taken literally but I figured that didn't merit a serious response.

mrsjones5 said I'm obsessed, but I could argue the members of this board are far more obsessed than I am when it comes to disproving the WT but that is neither here nor there.

EndofMysteries didn't get my point. My point is showing that the great crowd is not in heaven.

NeverKnew and leavingWT statements are merely promoting Jwfacts and JWN which I have no objection to as onlookers can see the errors I am pointing out.

sabastious merely repeated an argument that was already addressed in post 4.

I believed everyone has been addressed. Lurkers, please note how there has been no attempt at refuting my points but the usual chatter from JWN boards (of no real merit). But I can't say I expected anything different.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Recovery

The scriptures are omitted for the sake of brevity. Here are the ten terms that jwfacts claims the WT uses in reference to the anointed only and therefore (since the great crowd are described with similar terms) must also refer to the great crowd.

1. "great crowd" (already shown to be used in various occassions to many groups of people)

2. "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" (these terms are also used to describe various peoples and ethnic groups throughout the Christian Greek scriptures)

3. "standing before (enopion) the throne" (terms used ambiguously throughout the scriptures)

4. "before (enopion) the Lamb" (I'll admit this is a unique usage but if there is an earthly class of faithful worshipers such an expression could [though not definitively] be used in reference to those individuals)

5. "dressed in white robes" (Revelation 7:14 says "And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." As we can see the white robes symbolize the cleansing and repentance of Christ's followers by means of his ransom sacrifice. The term is by no means a 'conclusive description'.)

6. "crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb."" (I don't believe an explanation of this is necessary as it is obvious that all Christians, earthly or heavenly, would owe salvation to Jehovah and Jesus Christ)

7. "come out of the great tribulation" (well since the Great Tribulation occurs on the earth it is by no means conclusive that those who come out of the great tribulation must be in heaven)

8. "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (this is the same as point 5)

9. "rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple" (in a future post I will show conclusively that this statement does not necessitate the habitation of the great crowd in heaven either)

10. "One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them"(why does God spread his tent over those who are already dwelling among him, before his throne, in his presence in heaven?)

As we can see, the 10 points listed are by no means conclusive and definitive proof. I really do not see what was the point of the author's listing when there are so many uniform nouns and adjectives that describe many different groups of people throughout the Bible (especially the Hebrew Scriptures). Please note I am not asserting that every description or scripture (omitted) was not in reference to the anointed. I am merely asserting that such usage is by no means definitive and determinative.