Recovery

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Posts by Recovery

• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

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• 

  Recovery

  Oh yeah and just for the record, I didn't cut and paste that from a JW apologist book. I actually did my own research and did my own examination.
• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Recovery

  Here's the information I presented:

  Revelation 7:1-3 "After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners OF THE EARTH, holding tight the four winds OF THE EARTH, that no wind might blow UPON THE EARTH or UPON THE SEA or UPON ANY TREE 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm THE EARTH and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm THE EARTH or THE SEA OR THE TREES, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

  It is obvious to anyone without biased or preconceived interpretations that the emphasis in this vision is on the earth. The vision is centered around the earth and what will happen to it and those on it. Notice that it says these four winds will be released AFTER the 144,000 are sealed. Continuing..

  Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.."

  Now this is significant. Notice that John does not say 'I saw' or 'I was transferred into heaven' but he simply says 'I heard'. There is no change in setting. The focus and the center of the vision can still be placed on the earth. John simply records the numbers that he hears and continues describing what he sees. Please note this simple, yet vital distinction.

  Question: How is the great crowd in heaven when the setting is the earth?
• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Recovery

  Okay okay okay okay rather be in hades. We get it. The Bible is false and just a book of myths/lies. I will commence my weeping and groaning as I patiently wait for jwfacts to answer just one simple question.
• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Recovery

  4 pages and still no rebuttal by jwfacts or any of the other members of this forum.

  I am quite satisfied with the results. You are helping prove to lurking JW's that you are not only just a mere cut and paste of what others say, but that you can't substantiate the very arguments that are almost universally used by ex-JW's. And here I was thinking I was going to need to write a post about naos and the temple. But that is not even necessary as so many basic arguments have yet to be addressed. Here's just one for you, jwfacts. Can you address just this one?

  1. The context and setting of Revelation 7, that never changed from earth to heaven.
• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Recovery
• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Recovery

  Jwfacts to me (yesterday): " Much of the information at jwfacts.com is from the research of people far more gifted then me, and comes from JWN. The arguments on my site are there because they are the ones that ex-JWs use, not the other way around."

  Jwfacts today: " BTW, that list you are discussing is from Franz, who came to believe that the great crowd is in heaven.. Why do you think anyone is going to take your arguments seriously, when you are only regurgitating what you are told, and what any JW or exJW has been told for years."

  So I return the question to you Jwfacts: " Why do you think anyone is going to take your arguments seriously, when you are only regurgitating what you are told, and what any JW or exJW has been told for years."

  Maybe you have been reading the Bible too much Jwfacts. You are starting to contradict yourself. (for those without a sense of humor, this is sarcasm)

  Still waiting on you to offer something of substance besides diversionary questions.
• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Recovery

  Here's the way this thread is going to go just like the last thread about inconsistencies in the bible that you were buried on. That thread was merely my way of collecting all arguments against the Bible in one place so I could save time. 1. You throw some crap argument out there and make a bunch of noise for attention. No crap arguments thrown out here. All of them from the Bible and a little thing called common sense. 2. You finally get some attention by way of solid arguments from members of this forum. 3. You ignore the counter arguments, and go on to another thread for more attention. The purpose of my Bible Inconsistencies thread was not to debate/rebuttal any counterarguments. So there was no ignoring on my part. BTW...weren't you supposed to create threads about every inconsistency in the bible from that other thread which were brought to your attention? I noticed that you never did follow through wit that? Are you not an individual of your word? Just because I have not done so yet, does not mean I will not. It is something that requires extensive research and much time. And I think most JW's are more likely to be mislead by jwfacts arguments rather than a supposed Biblical inconsistency. So this has my priority. Will anyone address these points? 1. The logical fallacy/double standard displayed when using the WT in your argument 2. The use of the greek words that form the phrase "great crowd" being ambiguous and used in numerous circumstances, and thus not making an automatic connection of Revelation 7 and 19 3. The ten common terms listed really not being that common at all. 4. The context and setting from the very beginning of Revelation 7 and how there is no change in setting. 5. How God will spread his tent and dwell with those who are already residing in heaven, before his throne and in his temple. Or are we going to get more ad hominem attacks, more irrelevant hypothetical what if questions, and more attempts at sidetracking the issue into 607/1914/Biblical errancy/anything else to divert the issue at hand?
• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Recovery

  In case you are having a hard time finding them here they are:

  1. The logical fallacy/double standard displayed when using the WT in your argument

  2. The use of the greek words that form the phrase "great crowd" being ambiguous and used in numerous circumstances, and thus not making an automatic connection of Revelation 7 and 19

  3. The ten common terms listed really not being that common at all.

  4. The context and setting from the very beginning of Revelation 7 and how there is no change in setting.

  5. How God will spread his tent and dwell with those who are already residing in heaven, before his throne and in his temple.

  Please proceed.
• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Recovery

  I will address your point when you start addressing mine.
• 
  278

  Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

  i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

  1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Recovery

  I am going to show how the use of NAOS to debunk the earthly great crowd doctrine is also in error. Maybe by the time I'm done typing someone can offer something of substance. It's easy to cut and paste and regurgitate someone else's argument. But it's an entirely different thing as this thread shows to defend them when they are challenged. I guess this makes exJWs guilty of the same thing they say JW's are.....helpless without the WT. Or in this case, helpless without jwfacts.