it is 3am here and i just finished reading your last post and even though i have to be up at 6am tomorrow morning (technically later), i felt obligated to login to jwn and write to you.
i thought about saying many things.
hurtful things.
For the same reason you continually dismiss people's personal experiences as fictitious when they don't paint the picture of spiritual paradise you want to believe exists among the JWs. You just can't help yourself.
Who/what are you referring to? Candace Conti?
i personally am inconclusive about the great crowd, but i have found many scriptures that address the earthly part and they do not at all agree with what the wt teaches about it.
i want your thoughts on this.
first look up rev 20:7-9. this is after the thousand years have ended and satan is released.
Your interpretation is interesting. I will have to back through and reread a few of these chapters to give an honest response.
it is 3am here and i just finished reading your last post and even though i have to be up at 6am tomorrow morning (technically later), i felt obligated to login to jwn and write to you.
i thought about saying many things.
hurtful things.
Point noted ChristAlone. I will refrain from the use of the word apostate. I will simply use the term ex JW. Is that fair?
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
Leolaia I would like for you to address post 167 when you are able.
it is 3am here and i just finished reading your last post and even though i have to be up at 6am tomorrow morning (technically later), i felt obligated to login to jwn and write to you.
i thought about saying many things.
hurtful things.
I do not understand why people continue to say I use insults and ad hominem attacks when I do nothing of the sort. Yes, I use sarcasm but it is not in angry or condescending or any other derogatory, gross manner. It is simply my way of having fun and exposing flaws in thinking and why people shouldn't take every single word I type in such extreme seriousness. Maybe sarcasm does not come across well, without a human voice behind the words.
I will refrain from sarcasm whenever possible, as it is constantly misinterpreted/thought to be some sort of arrogance or ad hominem attack.
Thanks for the letter, points noted. In my short time here, I have already received several emails from struggling JW's who were lurking that told me that my posts helped them. If I helped one JW free themselves of the lies spread on the internet, then all my efforts were certainly worth it.
The point of my name is that I was once a borderline apostate. It is absolutely debilitating and crushing to your spirituality from that point forward. I am recovering day by day and this is my way of doing so. Wish you the best as well.
recovery, .
here http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/238054/4/the-bible-full-of-errors-and-inconsistencies#4493307 you stated:.
"i will start a thread addressing each allegation of actual substance.
I was researching jwfacts long before I started the thread the Bible inconsistency thread. That thread was started as a basis for FUTURE research, while jwfacts/the great crowd was an aspect of my present research. Yes, there is a difference.
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
the-illuminator 81: Recovery, it's dangerous to think for yourself, and to admit that the WTS can make mistakes. Soon you will find yourself disfellowshipped or inactive. It happened to me!
Thanks for the tip.
sebastious: But you just didn't understand the argument about how you don't understand arguments...
Sorry I don't understand the argument about how I don't understand the argument about how I don't understand arguments.
XBEHERE: Do the elders in your congregation know that you read and post on this site?
No they do not, but if they asked me I would tell them.
watson: I was wrong. I think Recovery is a very clever and shrewd apostate. Look at how he is bringing out the rational thought process that is necessary to come out of the JW culture. My hat's off to you Recovery!!
LOL thanks watson. One day I'm djeggnog, one day I'm renee, now I'm an apostate JW. "I am...whatever you say I am." - Eminem
jgnat: As for whales to animal, Recovery shows a fundamental misunderstanding how structure speaks to progression. Whales don't have gills. Why?
I was joking. I am very well versed/in tune with evolutionary theories and 'how structure speaks to progression'. Evolution has been shoved down my throughout ever since 10th grade Biology well on into my university career.
Emery said: Trying to be as objective as possible, I believe Recovery has a good scriptural argument. When reading these 7 pages I witnessed a lot of people attacking everything but the argument at hand. I think Leo did a great job of utilizing scripture and only scripture to counter Recovery's position, along with a few others.
I agree with everything posted here. Finally some honesty. And I agree Leo is very good at utilizing scripture in her arguments.
rather be in hades: no one can look at the history of the watchtower society, read the older quotes, see how bat shit nutty they were and are, learn about science and still come out a jw after all is said and done.
Well I'm still a Jw. Still pioneering. Still reading the older nutty quotes and still fully functional. I probably know more about science (specifically, evolution) than most people here and most JW's in general, but I'm still here. Welp, there goes your theory.
Jonathan dough merely repeated what is already said on Jwfacts and in short, some of what Leolaia brought out. Already addressed, see my previous post.
tootired2care: This guy is a jerk, and a bully. We should flood his blog with comments and counter arguments. Wouldn't want to allow his copy/paste wt$ dogma to go unchecked on his site. Actually that is not my website. I do not use that blog. My current website is: www.donotgivewaytodoubt.wordpress.com for anyone interested. I will be updating it momentarily.
Everything else was mere cut and paste from exJW websites that have already been discussed in the last 7 pages.
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
In response to jeremiah 18:5-10 "You keep hammering on the "setting" of Revelation 7, which setting are you referring to, the fulfillment or where John is? Either way its a vision and admittedly John never leaves earth, correct? Any attempt to make definitive and conclusive statements otherwise is a leap based solely on personal opinion, preference, and agenda, as no one can confirm that these events ever happened [the visions to John or the fulfillments of the prophecies]
John sets the settings in all his visions. We know John never leaves the earth. He is given Revelation in signs/dreams/visions. That is not the setting I am referring to. A setting is where something is taking place. The setting within the visions are described in clear and obvious detail to all who are reading (and that is how Revelation was able to be separated into chapters since it was not originally written that way). Let me show you how John shows us the settings throughout his writings:
Revelation 8:1 "And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them."
Revelation 11:1 "11 And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it."
Revelation 12:1 "And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars.."
Revelation 15:1 "And I saw in heaven another sign, great and wonderful, seven angels with seven plagues.."
Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.."
So you see this is not about my opinion/my personal interpretation/the WT's interpretation. That is completely irrelevant to the context that John consistently sets forth in pretty much every one of his visions. It is no different for Revelation 7. What is the setting of Revelation 7? You decide.
Revelation 7:1-3 "7 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
Replying to jwfacts:
- This is not a double standard. For one, just because the WT is wrong in somethings does not mean it is wrong in everything. Secondly, I quote them constantly, in order to show the contradictions.
Your premise requires that the readers assume that the Watchtower's description and references used in conjunction with the anointed is correct. If your premise requires that, then it would also require that the Watchtower's references to the earthly great crowd must also be correct. If everything aforementioned is describing the anointed, then everything else (in the WT) must describe the great crowd. Yet this is the total opposite of the point of your article. Your premise is shaky and it's faulty. Probably because you simply copied and pasted another person's flawed logic but that is neither here nor there.
- Leolaia has well and truly destroyed your argument here.
No she hasn't. Leolaia only proved that several terms that describe the great crowd are also used in describing aspects of the heavenly realm. This is not something new to JW's and it is not something new to you either as your list showed us. The fact is, your argument was based on a lexicographical stance not a contextual one. You simply equivocated the use of "great crowd" in Revelation 7 with that of 19 since the latter mentions "a great crowd in heaven." However, as I showed by my quotation of another poster, the lexicographical use of the greek terms translated "great crowd" are not unique and can be used to refer to many varying groups. It can refer to ANY large group of people. Do you not understand your own argument?
- I am not sure if you are saying they are common, or not common, or which you even want to be the right answer. The fact that the ten terms used to describe the Great Crowd all are used in reference to the Anointed makes the case all the stronger that the great crowd are with them in heaven.
You cannot decide if you want to argue from a contextual stance or from a lexicographical stance. First you use the repetition of "a great crowd in heaven" from Revelation 19 to demonstrate the great crowd in Revelation 7 to be in heaven, but now you want to use contextual usage to argue your point. Either way, this premise is faulty. Revelation 21 and 22, as well as Hebrews 9 clarify the usage of these heavenly references in context to an earthly setting (which is the entire theme of Revelation 7 as a whole). I will show this soon quite clearly.
It has been answered poorly. Your answer was merely a strawman which attempted to show the 'faultiness' of a viewpoint I did not advocate in my argument. You also keep repeating that I said 'John is on earth' so how could he see the four corners of the earth, but that is not what I said. I said John is SEEING THE EARTH. Not that he is on earth. Please note that there is a difference. There is still not a valid scriptural pretense for changing the setting and emphasis from the earth to the heavenly realm other than a cut and paste from Ray Franz rhetoric.
- Again, how is that an issue? God spreads his heavenly tent over them.
The problem with this interpretation is that Revelation 7 is describing events that are taking place presently and then in a future tense. If the great crowd have been taken to heaven and have thus received spiritual bodies and immortality and are literally dwelling before God and the Lamb, how can God spread his heavenly tent over them? How 'will God dwell with them' as the scripture states? You clearly do not understand the argument I presented but I hope this clears it up for you.
- Where does it say they are immortal? They will no longer hunger or thirst and the sun won't beat down on them because they are in heaven. They will be guided to waters of life by the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne. He is in the midst of the throne, they are before the throne, and he shepherds them, placing them all in the same vicinity of heaven.
Oh please. Do you really want me to show you that once the anointed die and enter heaven that they receive immortal, incorruptible spiritual bodies? As an ex-JW this is something you should know quite well as this is discussed at length in 1 Corinthians and in the WT Publications. Your interpretation is shaky, because once again you are saying that 'they will be guided to waters of life'. The immortal cannot be guided any further to the waters of life.
Since you are demanding answers from me, with your attacks and insults, even though I don't even see any point or logic behind your questions, I expect the same courtesy of you. In your congregation, are you considered the "scholar" that people look up to for answers, or are you the loner up the back that doesn't quite fit in?
I have never insulted you. I have merely insulted your arguments and shown them to be found wanting. I have never called you a derogatory name nor have I described you in a derogatory manner. That is more than I can say for the members of this forum. To answer the question: I will not say that I am considered a scholar. I have been a pioneer for many years, since I was a teenager, so many people do feel comfortable asking me questions and want to work with me out in field service. Scholar? No. Available to help with tough questions? Yes. Loner? Definitely not.
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
In response to Leolaia:
Here is a problem with the interpretation that the great crowd are in heaven, as opposed to the earth. Let's look at Revelation 7:13-15 "And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple;
Now if we interpret the great crowd as being literally in heaven, before the antitypical heavenly temple, before God's and the Lamb's heavenly throne then they are already in heaven. If they are already in heaven, they have already received the gift of immortality. They do not have physical, fleshly bodies, but spiritual ones. At this point in the vision, John is already seeing this great crowd in heaven. Keep this in mind as we look at the next few verses. Continuing...
"and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
Notice the repetitious use of the modal verb "will". If we interpret the great crowd as already having entered heaven and thus already received the gift of immortality upon such entry, then we have a problem. They are already in God's temple and in the midst of the throne and yet the scripture says God will spread his tent over them. They are immortal and are not affected by a physical realm, yet the scripture says "they will hunger or thirst or be beat down by the sun's scorching heat no more." The Lamb will shepherd them and he will guide them to the fountains of waters of life.
Now ask yourself: How can the anointed, immortal anointed ones who are not subject to the physical realm and its effects experience these things in a FUTURE SENSE. How can those who are immortal be guided to the fountains of waters of life? How will they 'no longer hunger or thirst or experience the heat from the sun' anymore when they have HEAVENLY, SPIRITUAL, IMMORTAL BODIES? How WILL God wipe out every tear from their eyes when we take all of these things into account?
Does it seem reasonable to continue concluding that the great crowd is in heaven? Obviously not. Yes there are several phrases that are unique to the heavenly realm that describe the great crowd but these are all clarified and put into perspective when we look at the parallel vision in Revelation 21 and 22.
