jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
No actually the temple is not always in heaven.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU? 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are.
And what do you know, naos is used there. Guess that arguments falls flat on its face.
No more cut and paste rhetoric from ex JW websites. They aren't well researched.
so elder x came over the other day to convince me about why jehovah's witnesses have 1914 correct.
i wrote about this some time ago, but the elder never returned.
he caught me off-guard, and unprepared.. he went through the reasoning book (p95), and pointed out all the reaons (day for a year, daniel, 360 days, 2520 ...).
Please remember where Christ is.
2 Corinthians 5:20 "We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”
Ephesians 3:10 "[This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, 11 according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord"
Colossians 1:17, 18 " Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation."
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
I've yet to cut and paste from a single WT. But jwfacts, tootiredtocare, and many posters in this discussion have copied and pasted on several occassions.
So as I go to sleep, I want jwfacts to remember the points he has yet to successfully address:
1. The logical fallacy/double standard displayed when using the WT in your argument
2. The use of the greek words that form the phrase "great crowd" being ambiguous and used in numerous circumstances, and thus not making an automatic connection of Revelation 7 and 19
3. The ten common terms listed really not being that common at all.
4. The context and setting from the very beginning of Revelation 7 and how there is no change in setting. (tried to address but did so erroneously with a strawman of my argument)
5. How God will spread his tent and dwell with those who are already residing in heaven, before his throne and in his temple.
And here's just one more for good measure.
6. Why does Revelation 7 say the immortal, anointed heavenly great crowd "will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat.." and "the Lamb...will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” Surely the immortal do not need to be guided to the fountains of waters of life. Tears, hunger, thirst, and scorching heat certainly do not occur to the immortal in heaven. So why does Revelation use these terms?
I await the cut and paste Biblical interpretation by Ray Franz and maybe a random JWN poster.
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
The Lamb is on the earth (after the things mentioned in Revelation 7 and its parallel vision in 21) take place. I'm sure you will ask for proof. In short, Revelation 21 is a vision of the new heaven and earth. Chapter 22 is a continuation of that vision.
Notice what verse 1 says "And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations."
The anointed are immortal and cured the moment they are sealed and go into heaven. Now ask yourself and use your thinking cap: Does this verse sound like it's talking about the earth and people who already immortal? hmm. If the water is flowing out from the throne of God and the Lamb, and it can't possibly be talking about heaven, where is the throne located? And thus, where is the Lamb? I hope I answered your question.
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
Jwfacts clearly did not understand the argument: To use your terminology and reasoning, notice that John does not say 'I saw' or 'I was transferred into heaven'. By your reasoning, the elders must be on earth too, which is not what your religion teaches.
No my reasoning was regarding the specificity of the context and setting of the vision. We cannot change settings unless we have ample reason to. Such as John saying 'And I saw in heaven...and look!'. That would be entirely different. I am not saying that just because John does not say he was transferred into heaven every single time that means its taking place on the earth. I am not saying that just because John does not say 'he saw' that means that something is not taking place in heaven.
John emphasizes the earth. Doesn't make a transition into heaven whatsoever. Ray Franz (and thus jwfacts - his professional copy and paster) says otherwise.
Who will you believe?
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
In verse 13 John does not see the elders. He merely says 'one of the elders said to me'. This is the same thing when he said: 'And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand.."
You are not understanding my line of reasoning, so I will explain it to you in the simplest terms I know how.
Revelation 7 is talking about the earth. It cannot be talking about heaven because the vision never switches gears into heaven. The setting never changes. The central theme of the earth never changes. It is often used as proof that this vision is about heaven because it mentions the 144,000 but John merely says 'he heard' the sealing, not that he saw the sealing. That is my point.
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
Rather Be in hades I will offer the same advice to you. Some things in the Bible may be hard to understand or even seem irrational/impossible. But please brush up on Bible prophecy. You will not find a more accurate source than the WT Publications but since you don't seem to be a fan of the WT, simply research them yourself. I remember this quote by heart. "Bible prophecies.....are so innumerable so as to make accidental fulfillment almost impossible." Especially regarding Cyrus, Egypt, Assyria, Rome, Greece, Jerusalem on several occassions, and the United Nations/Nebuchadnezzar. Look at how many times critics ridiculed the Bible and said it was false and it proved them wrong. Look at how ahead of its time and how scientifically accurate the creation account is, going in the same basic order as scientists say.
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
If we apply this literally as you are by inference than where does that leave the gentiles?
Just because some things in the vision are interpreted as literal, does not mean the entire vision has to be.
People that are brought to heaven are brought from where? wait for it, wait for it...the earth, so of course the context is the earth when it's speaking of those who are being taken to heaven!
You are not helping anyone's case. Your saying the setting is the earth. Well the vision describes the great crowd as coming out of the great tribulation and worshipping before the Lamb and in the Temple on the earth. You are proving my point.
no one could count [not 144k?!?!], from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb [Funny it doesn't say they are on the earth does it?!?!].
As you've already admitted for us, the setting is the earth. That is where everything is taking place. Now you are arguing that the scripture doesn't say they are on earth. Which is it?
[So if some annointed have died post 1918 and been ressurected to heaven as the wt$ dogma would have you believe how is this criteria fullfilled?
How is the criteria of the great crowd coming out of the tribulation fulfilled? I didn't think that needed an explanation.
There is so many ways this text could be intepreted and spun to suit any religious dogma. Your assertions haven't proven a thing.
Of course. I am well aware of many Biblical interpretations regarding Revelation and especially this chapter. However, obviously all can't be correct. And obviously, when we look at the facts, Jwfacts' cut and paste of Ray Franz rhetoric and JWN's regurgitated arguments can't be correct neither.
So will Jwfacts answer the question: What is the setting of Revelation 7?
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
I know they were signs. I know John was not literally transferred into heaven when he saw his visions. I know these were dreams. Instead of arguing about a strawman and misinterpreting what I said, you offered no response to the context and setting so clearly and vividly described by John himself.
Notice how John always makes it very clear for us what he is seeing:
Revelation 8:1 "And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them."
Easy.
Setting: heaven.
Revelation 11:1 "And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. "
Easy.
Setting: the temple
Revelation 12:1 "And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, 2 and she was pregnant."
Easy.
Setting: heaven
Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more"
Easy.
Setting: the new heaven and earth.
Now Jwfacts will you please kindly answer this question for us: What is the setting of Revelation 7?
so elder x came over the other day to convince me about why jehovah's witnesses have 1914 correct.
i wrote about this some time ago, but the elder never returned.
he caught me off-guard, and unprepared.. he went through the reasoning book (p95), and pointed out all the reaons (day for a year, daniel, 360 days, 2520 ...).
Enjoy your christian fellowship and help from the elders while you still can. Apostates are not going to lead you anywhere but out of the organization and into dried, muddied, waters. The organization has many flaws, but don't allow yourself to be mislead out of it so easily.
