Posts by cognisonance

216

No One Should Be Made to Choose..LIES from July 09 Awake

by Hopscotch in

the following quote is taken from the article is it wrong to change your religion?

in the july 2009 awake p29:

no one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.

cognisonance

Bumping for those new to this site.

Also, anyone have success with pointing this out to family members? Any accusations about quoting out of context (a valid concern since if out of context that poses a problem, something often complained about when it comes to the evolution vs. creation articles JWs publish). One might argue the context is written about the general public changing religions (among false religion to false religion, or false to true, but never true to false [or no religion]). Still, any such argument about out of context would only be an implied context, an unwritten meme amongst JWs. So saying it's out of context is a bit of a stretch. Also consider the article is written for the general public primarily and as such gives the impression JWs are open minded and reasonable (then bait and switch when one wants to leave...).

44

rama singh WHAT HE REALLY SAID, so you men can stop lying

by atheist_R_stupid in

"there have been repeated scientific challenges to the.

theory of evolution in the past, and the nonbelievers of evo-.

lution cite them as support for their case.

cognisonance

Atheist_R_stupid,

I believe you are the one being intellectually dishonest, as you are doing the same out of context quoting that JWs do. Here is the whole section you quote from. Please notice that the "challenges" to "darwinian evolution" are not challenges to the theory of evolutoion as a whole but rather just certain aspects, or the challenges were dropped as the evidence mounted. The Awake editors time and time again confuse any disagreement in science about evolution to look challenging scientists think evolution never happened, which as Singh said in his letter isn't even a minority of scientists that would think this.

Challenges to Darwinian evolution

There have been repeated scientific challenges to the theory of evolution in the past, and the nonbelievers of evolution cite them as support for their case. However, the scientific challenges to the theory of evolution were technical and of a very different kind.

The modern theory of evolution has enjoyed success by bringing together Mendelian genetics and Darwinian evolution; although the theory has faced many challenges from different corners, it has survived them all. These challenges have been of two kinds: those of scientific nature that question the adequacy of natural selection as sufficient explanation of change and those of general nature that question the truth of evolution on religious or other grounds.

Among the serious scientific challenges to the theory of evolution, the foremost has come from developmental biologists. Many developmental biologists felt Darwin’s natural selection theory was inadequate to explain the diversity of developmental complexity observed among organisms. Yet 150 years after Darwin, although our notions about the fine details of mutation, gene regulation, and selection mechanisms may have changed, no new forces of evolution have been added to the important forces of evolution, i.e., mutation and selection. Many developmental biologists rightly see the complexity of development less of a problem to the theory of evolution and more of a challenge to their field to explain it by natural selection (Bonner 1988).

Other similar but more technical challenges have come in the form of non-Darwinian evolution from molecular biologists (King and Jukes 1969), neutral evolution from molecular population geneticists (Kimura 1968), and from punctuated evolution or “evolution by burst” (Eldredge and Gould 1972; Gould 1977). As these challenges have broadened our horizons and have enriched Darwinian evolution, especially in terms of the ever-unfolding dynamics of mutational and genomic variation (Lynch 2007), these were not challenges to the theory itself but only to the details of the evolutionary mechanics, i.e., about role of selection and rate of change.

35

JAN 2015 Awake - Yet More Fallacies and Disingenuous Statements re Evolution/Creation

by konceptual99 in

so the new awake is up.. first question..... "how did life begin?.

how would you complete the following sentance?.

life is the result of..... a. evolution.

cognisonance

Another match for Gerard from his Undergrad alma mater:

Gerard D. Hertel ’65 writes that he is “teaching the Bible as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, getting to know my wife of 33 years, Bobbie, a little better, enjoying my four granddaughters, and teaching and doing research as an adjunct professor in the Department of Biology at West Chester [Pa.] University.” Retired after 35 years with the USDA Forest Service, Gerard works on African violet habitat descriptions and forest health monitoring.

7

The emptiness of science may explain the rise of fundamentalism...

by cognisonance in

neurophilosopher, thomas metzinger says in his book:.

the ego tunnel: thescience of the mind and the myth of the self.

the ego evolved as an instrument in social cognition, and one of its greatest functional advantages was that it allowed us to read the minds of other animals or conspecifics and then to deceive them.

cognisonance

The emptiness Metzinger is referring to is this as he goes on to say in the next paragraph:

Yes, the self-model made us intelligent, but it certainly is not an example of intelligent design. It is the seed of subjective suffering. If the process that created the biological Ego Machine had been initiated by a person, that person would have to be described as cruel, maybe even diabolic. We were never asked if we wanted to exist, and we will never be asked whether we want to die or whether we are ready to do so. In particular, we were never asked if we wanted to live with this combination of genes and this type of body. Finally, we were certainly never asked if we wanted to live with this kind of a brain including this specific type of conscious experience. It should be high time for rebellion. But everything we know points to a conclusion that is simple but hard to come to terms with: Evolution simply happened — foresightless, by chance, without goal. There is nobody to despise or rebel against — not even ourselves. And this is not some bizarre form of neurophilosophical nihilism but rather a point of intellectual honesty and great spiritual depth.

To a religious believer, especially a JW, the idea that we are here by chance, without goal, is empty. Of course meaning in life can come from within even if there is no inherent meaning in the universe.

82

Awake January 2015: How did life begin? - More misquotes

by Designer Stubble in

[quote]some might assume that a scientifically-minded person would pick evolution and that a religious person would pick creation.

but not always.. rama singh, professor of biology at canadas mcmaster university, says: the opposition to evolution goes beyond religious fundamentalism and includes a great many people from educated sections of the population.[/quote].

end-of-quote in awake.

cognisonance

Here is the full paper (html, pdf) that quote comes from.

7

The emptiness of science may explain the rise of fundamentalism...

by cognisonance in

neurophilosopher, thomas metzinger says in his book:.

the ego tunnel: thescience of the mind and the myth of the self.

the ego evolved as an instrument in social cognition, and one of its greatest functional advantages was that it allowed us to read the minds of other animals or conspecifics and then to deceive them.

cognisonance

Neurophilosopher, Thomas Metzinger says in his Book:

THE EGO TUNNEL: THESCIENCE OF THE MIND AND THE MYTH OF THE SELF

The Ego evolved as an instrument in social cognition, and one of its greatest functional advantages was that it allowed us to read the minds of other animals or conspecifics — and then to deceive them. Or deceive ourselves. Since our inbuilt existential need for full emotional and physical security can never be fulfilled, we have a strong drive toward delusion and bizarre belief systems. Psychological evolution endowed us with the irresistible urge to satisfy our emotional need for stability and emotional meaningfulness by creating metaphysical worlds and invisible persons. Whereas spirituality might be defined as seeing what is — as letting go of the search for emotional security — religious faith can be seen as an attempt to cling to that search by redesigning the Ego Tunnel. Religious belief is an attempt to endow your life with deeper meaning and embed it in a positive metacontext — it is the deeply human attempt to finally feel at home. It is a strategy to outsmart the hedonic treadmill. On an individual level, it seems to be one of the most successful ways to achieve a stable state — as good as or better than any drug so far discovered. Now science seems to be taking all this away from us. The emerging emptiness may be one reason for the current rise of religious fundamentalism, even in secular societies.

This quote helped me realize why JWs reject evolution so strongly. The stronger the evidence for it, the deeper they reject it. If religious belief in general is this strong, JW beliefs are on steroids.

47

I'm at a loss at how to get thru to my parents. I fear they will die before they will stop shunning me.

by cognisonance in

all i want is this: for us to be a family, to spend time together enjoying life.

i don't wish to debate about their beliefs when together.

they can remain jws for all i care.

cognisonance

Ask him what family business really means not the WT interpretation. Isn't Health, education, marriage, divorce, grandchildren, financial issues family business? At least in the real world.

The only problem with that is I recall one of the last circuit assemblies I went to a bethel speaker said (paraphrased to the best of my memory): "The governing body gave us some consideration with regards talking to disfellowshipped family members realizing that we might need to attend to necessary family business at times. Many brothers and sisters take advantage of this categorizing normal conversation as 'necessarily family business.' The slave provided this provision as a courtesy but it isn't anywhere in the bible. Ultimately it's your relationship that is at stake with Jehovah and you should think hard about any contact you have with DF'd family." In more or less words he said it could be the GB was overstepping in providing that. He was trying to inspire fear.

I don't know if they heard that talk or not, or if this admonition is endemic in the org. I don't know how open he'd be to redefining that definition. Worth a try perhaps.

47

I'm at a loss at how to get thru to my parents. I fear they will die before they will stop shunning me.

by cognisonance in

all i want is this: for us to be a family, to spend time together enjoying life.

i don't wish to debate about their beliefs when together.

they can remain jws for all i care.

cognisonance

It's hard to help when you don't know what they need help with. They got into a car accident, though no injuries other than being scared, and I wasn't aware of it until months later (my dad only told me when I came to pick up something). My brother, never officially DF'd is always in need of help (he went thru years of addiction and has trouble holding jobs among other problems). He is one avenue that I can assist my parents with. At times, me helping him puts me in a position to talk with my parents. For example, he crashed at my place for a few days and together we meet my Mom to help get my him some needed items. My mom was very cold and barely would talk or look at me. However, when it was time for me and my brother to leave, she turns to me and says, "I just have to..." and then gives me a hug with tears streaming down her face she says, "I love you so much!"

47

I'm at a loss at how to get thru to my parents. I fear they will die before they will stop shunning me.

by cognisonance in

all i want is this: for us to be a family, to spend time together enjoying life.

i don't wish to debate about their beliefs when together.

they can remain jws for all i care.

cognisonance

ToesUp,Thanks for the encouragement!

ctrwtf, That's an interesting idea. The last time I talked along those lines it went like this (from one my previous links). I then gave up and changed the subject:

Me: I don’t know how much time I have left; will you two be here 10 years from now? 15? 20? Since I’m not coming back to the religion it pains me to think I won’t be able to have a close relationship with either of you and to enjoy the little time together we have left.

Mom: Well, you can do that, all you have to do is just return to Jehovah and we can be a family again.

Me: But that’s the problem, I don’t believe the same things they do. I don’t believe in God. There is nothing for me to return to. Do you expect me to fake it and come back to the religion and lie to myself to deny myself of who I am and what I’ve come to learn? I’d be deceiving myself if I did that.

Mom: We don’t want you to come back just for us, that would not be the right motive.

Me: What am I supposed to do then? What if I was raised in an Amish family? If we all were Amish? If I left, I’d be shunned too, simply for not believing the same way you guys do and you also couldn’t talk to me. They too probably wouldn’t want their son or daughter to return just to be with them, but for them him/her to come back to God.

Dad: That’s not the same thing. We’re God’s organization, they are false religion.

Me: I guess what I’m trying to say is, why does religion have to come between parents and their children? It’s frustrating and painful not to have you two in my life.

Mom: You do realize it’s hard for us to.

Me: Yes I do, I know you are hurting, I’m hurting, and my friends are hurting. I am very distraught that everyone is in so much pain.

Dad: Your friends know you care, we know you care.

Me: Thanks Dad, but this all seems so unnecessary. This just needless pain and agonizing for all involved.

Dad: That is true. It is needless. This is why if everyone did things Jehovah’s way we wouldn’t have to go thru such heartbreaking situations.

Me: Dad, I know you aren’t going to like me saying this, but how is that not blaming the victim?

Dad & Mom: You aren’t a victim.

Dad: We did not leave you. We were always here for you. You are the one that left us by your choice of actions and attitude that lead to you being kicked out of the religion.

Me: Dad, while I do regret that I left the religion for dishonorable reasons (adultery) that has nothing to do with my decision not to return. In fact, I wish I would have just left the religion by disassociating myself for disbelief instead. But that would not change how you view the situation would it?

Dad: No, it wouldn’t

Me: But to my point, how is this my fault? The fact is I cannot come back to the religion because I just don’t believe in it anymore.

Mom: You keep saying religion. It isn’t religion you’ve turned your back on, it’s Jehovah. We just want you to come back. I pray to him every day that you will return.

Me: Mom, I’m right here in front of you now. I want to be a part of your life, I want you to be a part of mine.

Mom: I’m not saying I want you to return to me, I want you to return to Jehovah. That’s the only thing I want.

Me: Mom, I know you think it is in my best interest to be part of this religion, that my life is on the line. I respect that. But I’m sure the Amish mother also prays form her child to return to God, and thus the Amish faith as well.

Mom: I don’t want to argue with you.

Me: Okay mom, I don’t want to either. I just feel like my family is being held ransom from me. If I want them to be in my life I have to return to this organization. I feel, from my perspective that I’m being extorted in a way.

Dad: You do know we feel differently.

Me: Yes, of course and that’s why I said this is how it makes me feel. I just don’t understand how this is loving for this rule to be in place where parents and children cannot spend time together simply because they don’t believe the same way (just as with the Amish).

Dad: This isn’t a rule. This is what God tells us is the best thing to do. Again, the Amish are completely different than our situation.

Me: I just bring that up because I recently watched the movie, “The Shunning,” about this Amish girl who left her faith, for good reasons unlike me mind you, but still was shunned and lost her family and friends. I found it very hard to watch and saw a lot of parallels.

Mom: I would find that hard to watch too.

47

I'm at a loss at how to get thru to my parents. I fear they will die before they will stop shunning me.

by cognisonance in

all i want is this: for us to be a family, to spend time together enjoying life.

i don't wish to debate about their beliefs when together.

they can remain jws for all i care.

cognisonance

Find a healing place and positive people. I know what it is like to be held away by those you thought cared about you. I go to a good therapist (someone to share with and to validate my feelings) and have reached out to new people.
Part of the reason may be you are too busy to do this so far but keep it a goal.

Blonde,

Thanks for responding to my thread. I've enjoyed your posted on this forum. As regards healing. I'm doing quite well. I've been out of this religion for 3 years now (or something like that, seems forever now). I saw a psychologist for over a year to help me thru this (and a divorce).

I have made new close friends and "family" if you will. My life has moved on in many ways. University and Research is a recent endeavor for me. I was much less busy my first couple years out of the cult.

I also have family, mostly on my dad's side that are not part of the religion. Still, I nonetheless still care for my parents. I know they care about me. They are just held captive by the cult. I can see every time we have the chance to talk the positive feelings they have outweigh any fear or guilt (though fear no doubt prevent many opportunities for them to talk to me). It is, in part, for this reason that I keep trying and will not let go of them.