john.prestor

Joined

• started 29 topics
• posted 900 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by john.prestor

• 
  48

  An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

  by Rocketman123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

  hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  Does that make it true, early or not early? Earlier in that piece he points out that there's no way to confidently date 1 Cor. 15's credal statement
• 
  48

  An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

  by Rocketman123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

  hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  I haven't mentioned Ehrman once. I do not believe he said that and if he did, I disagree with him. The credal statement in 1 Corinthians cannot be dated easily. However, a late date can be seen from the fact that two credal statements are jammed together, one favoring Peter, one favoring James. I'll try to find the article I read which made that argument convincingly.

  For now, let me link you to Richard Carrier on the claim that that credal statement is as old as you say it is. I watched your video, so read this link:

  https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11069

  Even if it was early, so what? It's still bullshit.
  
  
• 
  48

  An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

  by Rocketman123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

  hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  Do not try to equate history with silly, fantastical stories about a guy raising from the dead. That's not history.

  Did you want to respond to any of the other points I made?
• 
  48

  An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

  by Rocketman123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

  hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  You've made a lot of points, but they all come back to, But the Bible says... Keep that in mind as I respond to them individually.

  -Luke 1:1-4 suggests that historical methods of some kind were used, yet the narrative of Luke is hardly different than Matthew or Mark, suggesting the author is just repeating what he or she learned. I would point you to Alfred Loisy's Origins of the New Testament for a detailed look at these prologues and how they've been tampered with (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/loisy2/chapter6.html).

  -Josephus did not write about Jesus, a later Christian copying his work added in a section about Jesus. The section about Jesus breaks the context and sounds like a Christian and not a Jew. The other sources you've mentioned are 2nd century sources who may only be responding to or repeating Christian claims. They are not necessarily independent sources, and even if they were, they're too late to have witnessed the supposed crucifixion.

  -Your following questions ("What would...") are just you repeating or paraphrasing what the Bible says. I'll show you what I mean:
  How could this new belief (about Jesus Resurrection) take hold right in the city where everyone saw Jesus die? It was to Pilates' and the Pharisee's' advantage to produce a body to stamp out this hysteria surrounding Jesus. But none was ever found.

  What you mean is this: But The Gospel of Matthew says Jesus' body was not in the tomb, and says everyone watched him die, and says...

  Yeah I know it does, I don't believe The Gospel of Matthew. There's no good evidence for the tomb itself in the 1st century CE, much less that tomb having something to do with Jesus' claims. Prove to me that a body was deposited in a specific tomb in Jerusalem in 33CE and then was found missing, and don't use the Bible. Good luck.
• 
  48

  An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

  by Rocketman123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

  hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  Says Habermas: "By normal historical methods, the tomb was empty." (~7:50)

  What methods would those be? We don't even have the tomb.
• 
  48

  An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

  by Rocketman123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

  hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  I did not. I'll listen to part of it today; it's an hour and a half to be fair, you're kind of asking a lot. I doubt it's anything I haven't heard before because, again, it comes down to what the Bible says: that Jesus died, was buried, the tomb was empty, the disciples preached about it... You can't get this information from any secular, non-Biblical source.
• 
  48

  An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

  by Rocketman123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

  hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  Your 12 claims are just "The Bible is true." That's what they come down to, they're a summary of what the Bible claims happened in texts like Matthew, Acts, etc.

  i might, might, give you 1 of 12. Might. That would be that a guy named Jesus was crucified in the 1st century CE. But even that is up for debate.
• 
  48

  An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

  by Rocketman123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

  hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  I would argue the talk of 500 witnesses is a late interpolation in 1 Corinthians. Someone wrote that into the earlier letter when they were copying it.

  Regardless, I've never found another text which speaks of Jesus appearing to 500 people at once.
• 
  48

  An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

  by Rocketman123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

  hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  The 500 witnesses is apparently from The Acts of Philip. Jesus makes an appearance in Athens to 500 Jews who convert on the spot.
• 
  5

  Police raid a Kingdom Hall in Norway and question elders

  by cachito in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  police raid a kingdom hall in norway of jehovah's witnesses and question elders.jehovah's witnesses want to cooperate with the police and explain why they have an arc of alleged crimes.

  they claim that their elders are priests and must maintain confidentiality ... however ... the watchtower headquarters does not ask elders to refer to themselves as priests, that would be a disfellowshipping offense.

  and they do not ask their elders to maintain confidentiality ... they must give the information to high ranking officials within the watchtower hierarchy.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  It's funny how they throw the priest hat on whenever they need to wear it. Priests my ass. I mean... they act and are priests in practice, but then they refuse to use that title until the police come knocking.