Posts by john.prestor

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

I don't care who accepts the empty tomb as a fact. It is not a fact, there is no tomb, period. Where is the tomb? Show me proof that there was a 1st century CE tomb, much less owned by Joseph of Arimathea in which Jesus' body was laid after crucifixion and then wasn't in later. Again, don't use the Bible.

Here's an explanation: the empty tomb is a late lie invented by persons like Polycarp of Smyrna, who needed to explain to a Greek audience why people should believe in Christianity. It is meant to bolster their own claims to authority and power in the church.

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

Again, you continue to retreat to the Bible. I can't have a coherent discussion with you because you take the Bible at face value and I don't. The Bible lurks behind everything you say.

Try to get this through your head: the empty tomb is a late legend. There was no empty tomb, there was no way to falsify early Christian claims that Jesus had resurrected.

The early tomb is not a fact. It is a fiction, dreamed up decades later somewhere in Greece or Asia Minor.

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

You didn't answer my question. The question is, If it's early, does that make it true? I don't feel like we're getting anywhere.

The simple answer to my question is No, it doesn't. Even if Paul heard something literally the day after Jesus died from Peter & Co in Jerusalem, that still doesn't make it true. They could be lying, mistaken, delusional, tricked, etc.

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

Does that make it true, early or not early? Earlier in that piece he points out that there's no way to confidently date 1 Cor. 15's credal statement

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

I haven't mentioned Ehrman once. I do not believe he said that and if he did, I disagree with him. The credal statement in 1 Corinthians cannot be dated easily. However, a late date can be seen from the fact that two credal statements are jammed together, one favoring Peter, one favoring James. I'll try to find the article I read which made that argument convincingly.

For now, let me link you to Richard Carrier on the claim that that credal statement is as old as you say it is. I watched your video, so read this link:

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11069

Even if it was early, so what? It's still bullshit.

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

Do not try to equate history with silly, fantastical stories about a guy raising from the dead. That's not history.

Did you want to respond to any of the other points I made?

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

You've made a lot of points, but they all come back to, But the Bible says... Keep that in mind as I respond to them individually.

-Luke 1:1-4 suggests that historical methods of some kind were used, yet the narrative of Luke is hardly different than Matthew or Mark, suggesting the author is just repeating what he or she learned. I would point you to Alfred Loisy's Origins of the New Testament for a detailed look at these prologues and how they've been tampered with (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/loisy2/chapter6.html).

-Josephus did not write about Jesus, a later Christian copying his work added in a section about Jesus. The section about Jesus breaks the context and sounds like a Christian and not a Jew. The other sources you've mentioned are 2nd century sources who may only be responding to or repeating Christian claims. They are not necessarily independent sources, and even if they were, they're too late to have witnessed the supposed crucifixion.

-Your following questions ("What would...") are just you repeating or paraphrasing what the Bible says. I'll show you what I mean:
How could this new belief (about Jesus Resurrection) take hold right in the city where everyone saw Jesus die? It was to Pilates' and the Pharisee's' advantage to produce a body to stamp out this hysteria surrounding Jesus. But none was ever found.

What you mean is this: But The Gospel of Matthew says Jesus' body was not in the tomb, and says everyone watched him die, and says...

Yeah I know it does, I don't believe The Gospel of Matthew. There's no good evidence for the tomb itself in the 1st century CE, much less that tomb having something to do with Jesus' claims. Prove to me that a body was deposited in a specific tomb in Jerusalem in 33CE and then was found missing, and don't use the Bible. Good luck.

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

Says Habermas: "By normal historical methods, the tomb was empty." (~7:50)

What methods would those be? We don't even have the tomb.

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

I did not. I'll listen to part of it today; it's an hour and a half to be fair, you're kind of asking a lot. I doubt it's anything I haven't heard before because, again, it comes down to what the Bible says: that Jesus died, was buried, the tomb was empty, the disciples preached about it... You can't get this information from any secular, non-Biblical source.

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

john.prestor

Your 12 claims are just "The Bible is true." That's what they come down to, they're a summary of what the Bible claims happened in texts like Matthew, Acts, etc.

i might, might, give you 1 of 12. Might. That would be that a guy named Jesus was crucified in the 1st century CE. But even that is up for debate.