What floridaborn is getting at Pinky is this: to get reinstated you need the Elders who disfellowshipped you to reinstate you, you can't go to another Body of Elders at another congregation or even different Elders at your same congregation, it's gotta be the committee that threw you out to begin with. So if the Elders who disfellowshipped you don't serve as Elders anymore because the organization dissolved their congregation or sold their hall, what do you do?
john.prestor
JoinedPosts by john.prestor
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16
Reinstatement
by Pinky inwhat questions do the elders ask you when you are in your meeting requesting to get reinstated ?.
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6
Another day, another run-in
by john.prestor inso a couple days ago i ran into a colleague of mine coming back from the mall, let's call her lianne for the story.
we started talking about our research and when lianne asked about what i'm working on these days i told her about a paper i'm drafting where i argue the culture of jehovah's witnesses is collectively narcissistic, which just means they (typically, most often) think they're special and that their faith is better than others, and i cite a lot of evidence to that effect, things witnesses said to me in conversation, videos i watched on youtube of antiwitnessing, study articles and book chapters, things i heard cos say ("this is the greatest organization in the universe") so a lot of data from a lot of different places that really drives the point home and shows i didn't just invent this after some cranky old man went on a rant one day in when they commented in the watchtower study or something.
lianne seemed interested, i kept it brief, but i noticed this older woman across the aisle staring at me, not glaring, just sorta staring at me blankly or almost in surprise, and lianne and i moved on to another topic for a couple more minutes and then went back to reading our books, we each had one on us and put it down to chitchat for a few minutes, it was nice running into someone i knew, i got the same vibe from her.. after i read a few pages the older woman got my attention politely and said something like, i wanted to tell you that i'm one of jehovah's witnesses (i wondered that when she started staring at me) and i don't agree with what you said, and i'm wondering where you got your information.
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john.prestor
Oh Jesus, I just looked back and yep, I didn't say I was on a bus until the end. Thanks for the heads up.
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6
Another day, another run-in
by john.prestor inso a couple days ago i ran into a colleague of mine coming back from the mall, let's call her lianne for the story.
we started talking about our research and when lianne asked about what i'm working on these days i told her about a paper i'm drafting where i argue the culture of jehovah's witnesses is collectively narcissistic, which just means they (typically, most often) think they're special and that their faith is better than others, and i cite a lot of evidence to that effect, things witnesses said to me in conversation, videos i watched on youtube of antiwitnessing, study articles and book chapters, things i heard cos say ("this is the greatest organization in the universe") so a lot of data from a lot of different places that really drives the point home and shows i didn't just invent this after some cranky old man went on a rant one day in when they commented in the watchtower study or something.
lianne seemed interested, i kept it brief, but i noticed this older woman across the aisle staring at me, not glaring, just sorta staring at me blankly or almost in surprise, and lianne and i moved on to another topic for a couple more minutes and then went back to reading our books, we each had one on us and put it down to chitchat for a few minutes, it was nice running into someone i knew, i got the same vibe from her.. after i read a few pages the older woman got my attention politely and said something like, i wanted to tell you that i'm one of jehovah's witnesses (i wondered that when she started staring at me) and i don't agree with what you said, and i'm wondering where you got your information.
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john.prestor
Hey steve2, thanks for the compliment man. To be fair the bus is pretty small, I mean I just turned around in my seat to talk to Lianne who sat just behind me (I didn't know that when I got on, worked out nicely) and the woman sat just across the aisle so she might have overheard without trying to, although we tune people out on a daily basis, particularly on the bus. But you're right, it wasn't her conversation and she didn't have any reason to get involved, I didn't think of it like that. They don't really see boundaries, do they? Some of them approach mourners in graveyards, I met Witnesses at one congregation who intentionally approached people pumping gas at a gas station (so they couldn't get away...), or write letters to family members listed in an obituary, that kind of thing happens often enough that it shows a pattern of thought, a pattern of disregard.
Giordano, that quote is relevant. That's Jehovah's Witnesses, that's how they see themselves, that's how they see their doctrine, that's why they call it 'the truth,' and we all know what happens in most circumstances when you question that doctrine.
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Another day, another run-in
by john.prestor inso a couple days ago i ran into a colleague of mine coming back from the mall, let's call her lianne for the story.
we started talking about our research and when lianne asked about what i'm working on these days i told her about a paper i'm drafting where i argue the culture of jehovah's witnesses is collectively narcissistic, which just means they (typically, most often) think they're special and that their faith is better than others, and i cite a lot of evidence to that effect, things witnesses said to me in conversation, videos i watched on youtube of antiwitnessing, study articles and book chapters, things i heard cos say ("this is the greatest organization in the universe") so a lot of data from a lot of different places that really drives the point home and shows i didn't just invent this after some cranky old man went on a rant one day in when they commented in the watchtower study or something.
lianne seemed interested, i kept it brief, but i noticed this older woman across the aisle staring at me, not glaring, just sorta staring at me blankly or almost in surprise, and lianne and i moved on to another topic for a couple more minutes and then went back to reading our books, we each had one on us and put it down to chitchat for a few minutes, it was nice running into someone i knew, i got the same vibe from her.. after i read a few pages the older woman got my attention politely and said something like, i wanted to tell you that i'm one of jehovah's witnesses (i wondered that when she started staring at me) and i don't agree with what you said, and i'm wondering where you got your information.
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john.prestor
So a couple days ago I ran into a colleague of mine coming back from the mall, let's call her Lianne for the story. We started talking about our research and when Lianne asked about what I'm working on these days I told her about a paper I'm drafting where I argue the culture of Jehovah's Witnesses is collectively narcissistic, which just means they (typically, most often) think they're special and that their faith is better than others, and I cite a lot of evidence to that effect, things Witnesses said to me in conversation, videos I watched on YouTube of antiwitnessing, study articles and book chapters, things I heard COs say ("This is the greatest organization in the universe") so a lot of data from a lot of different places that really drives the point home and shows I didn't just invent this after some cranky old man went on a rant one day in when they commented in the Watchtower Study or something. Lianne seemed interested, I kept it brief, but I noticed this older woman across the aisle staring at me, not glaring, just sorta staring at me blankly or almost in surprise, and Lianne and I moved on to another topic for a couple more minutes and then went back to reading our books, we each had one on us and put it down to chitchat for a few minutes, it was nice running into someone I knew, I got the same vibe from her.
After I read a few pages the older woman got my attention politely and said something like, I wanted to tell you that I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses (I wondered that when she started staring at me) and I don't agree with what you said, and I'm wondering where you got your information. I turned and looked at her and I said directly in more or less these words, I went to services for years and I heard Witnesses say those kind of things. She asked me, Every day? meaning, did I attend services every week, I said No I didn't attend them every week, what does that have to do with anything, I went to 50, 60, 70 services. Then I went on the offensive and asked her, Don't you think you're in the one true religion, you know, you've got the sacred secrets others don't? She said, Well that's a scripture, meaning the term sacred secrets term comes from the Bible (it does, yes...), so I pressed her, Yeah, but don't you think that? She waffled and said Well they're not secrets, they're available to anyone
Just as an aside: then what do you Witnesses call them secrets for, lady? Doublethink at its finest, maybe she doesn't use the term but she recognized it obviously so she knew what I meant. But secrets aren't secrets suddenly so she could try to win the conversation, just... Jesus Christ.
So I responded to that, Yeah, but don't you think you have them and we don't, Witnesses attack other groups at services, she denied it, I said Come on, Christendom, worldly people, we're all gonna die at Armageddon? She scoffed and said she didn't think that and I said I wish people could just own them, I see myself as special for different reasons (most of us do, let's be honest, it's not a bad thing as long as we don't take it too far and condescend to others or treat them like garbage) and I'll admit that, you see yourself as special but you won't own it.
The conversation went on a bit longer but I'll cut it short because I've made my point and it just went back and forth, she started ad hominem attacks soon after that, was I "exposed" to the faith as a kid and came out "jaded," was I an "opposer," that kinda thing, and I just denied it outright and turned back in my seat so I was facing forward and got off the bus after a few more stops and told her a little too earnestly on purpose, Peace out.
These people drive me nuts sometimes. i know it isn't all of them but look, we all know most Witnesses see themselves as special, they sell you on that in the Bible Teach book, we know "the truth" and they don't, I mean Christ the very title of the Bible Teach book is comparative,What Does the Bible Really Teach? in other words, Others don't know what the Bible teaches, we do, we'll teach you (and yeah, a lot of groups believe that too, it's not just Witnesses, but many other groups don't seem to... get off on it like many Witnesses do that I've run into or got to known). The French sociologist Bourdieu says that every hierarchy of readings assumes a hierarchy of readers. Exactly. Exactly.
So if she just said to me when I asked, Yeah, I do see myself as special, and I believe Jesus will kill everyone else on this bus at Armageddon I would have been appalled but I would have stuck out my hand and shaken hers and said, Thank you for being honest, thank you for owning you, most people won't do that, I disagree with you and I find your views disturbing, particularly the last part, but at least you stand on it, at least you're honest with me and with yourself and the other people on this bus.
Some bold witness she gave. Why hide "the truth" about your faith? Hell, she could even just say Yeah, some of us feel that way but I don't. But she didn't. These people never fail to amaze me.
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Sign at gilead graduation
by Gorbatchov inyou know, i'm not such a conspiracy thinker.
but why do they display this sign / symbol at the background?
with some litle imagination it is a freemason sign.
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john.prestor
Honestly I think Stan livedeath hit the nail on the head, it's a stylized W for Watchtower. Good call.
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Sign at gilead graduation
by Gorbatchov inyou know, i'm not such a conspiracy thinker.
but why do they display this sign / symbol at the background?
with some litle imagination it is a freemason sign.
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john.prestor
It's not Freemasonry guys, it just isn't. What else could it represent, if anything?
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Sign at gilead graduation
by Gorbatchov inyou know, i'm not such a conspiracy thinker.
but why do they display this sign / symbol at the background?
with some litle imagination it is a freemason sign.
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john.prestor
It's clearly meant to represent something, I just can't tell what. The first thing that comes to mind is Russell's pyramidology. It's stylistic, it doesn't have to mean anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
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Discontinue unproductive bible study - jw broadcasting
by Gorbatchov inhttps://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/latestvideos/pub-ism_2_video.
interesting video explaining how to end a bible study.. watch the kind of uber behaviour of the witnesses: make a choice or we leave.... so hard, so not christian.
no love for the person.. g..
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john.prestor
ShirleyW, I'm with you, they should be innovating, should be trying to come up with new ways to attract people, yeah they gave themselves a face lift with their website and the carts and music videos on JW Broadcasting and interviews during Gilead graduation but... it's the same old iron hand under a sleek new velvet glove.
The Governing Body simply cannot innovate when it comes to the most important features of their faith because in many circumstances (getting rid of disfellowshipping, permitting blood transfusions, encouraging or just tolerating higher education at the congregational level) that means sacrificing or diminishing their power, they teach that they hold the keys to paradise, to everlasting life (I typed lie, hahaha, Freud was right) and they actually hold life and death power over many Witnesses, who let themselves die because they think taking a blood transfusion damns them to a violent death at Armageddon or they'll never see their dead loved ones again. So that won't do, we know these people love power, it's written all over their faces, it's dripping from their words, I think of Tony Morris's Don't say we're dogmatic remarks, and then he tells another audience not to go on websites that criticize him and his buddies. It's just... astonishing. They claim they're not infallible or inspired and yet they toss people out onto the street "like a piece of trash," in Flodin's terms, after years of "faithful service" just because they start to doubt the leadership. The Governing Body might as well snort power off their boardroom table like bankers snort powder from hundred dollar bills.
When it comes to less important features of the faith they could change without endangering their power very much (I dunno, youth groups, congregations getting together outside the hall), remember that Knorr chose the original Governing Body because they went with what he said and did and didn't challenge him. That Governing Body chose their successors for pretty much the same reason, it takes years to climb the hierarchy (I heard a Bethel speaker at one convention call it the "theocratic ladder") and you gotta toe the line and preach the company line to pull yourself up rung by rung over literal decades from (typically) the congregation to the circuit work to a Branch to Warwick. Even when you get into that boardroom in the lofty heights of headquarters, or that idyllic gazebo by the lake, it's hard to think innovatively when you repressed your own individual thoughts, not to mention individuality, in order to get there from adolescence if not childhood to adulthood through middle-age.
Here's what it comes down to: the Governing Body could choose to save their sinking ship. Instead, they're still whipping the slaves down in the galley with their threats and guilt-tripping and shouting, Keep rowing, we're almost there. But the truth is they're just as far from the gleaming shores of paradise as they were when the Bible students first sailed off with Russell all those years ago.
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My intro essay revisited
by vienne inhi everyone [even the person who always marks my posts thumbs down - snicker] i've added to and revised my introductory essay for separate identity volume two.
please read it and give me your thoughts.. thanks,.
rachael.
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john.prestor
Just want to encourage you to press on in your work, what you're doing is valuable.
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Prayer BANNED for Public Talks in KH's...
by The Fall Guy in........back in 1949!.
w50 3/15 p. 96 letters - "jesus held many public lectures, but there is no record that he opened or closed any of them with prayer....surely those of the public who are not of the christian faith do not turn out to our meetings in order to join with us in prayer to our god, but solely to hear the speech which is the drawing feature.
so we give them that and do not think to impose upon them by attaching something else to the lecture which might offend or stumble them before they hear the speech they came for.
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john.prestor
'Jesus held many public lectures...'
Their anachronistic wording will never fail to crack me up. Did he hand out fliers?