Posts by TonusOH

259

The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed

by FaceTheFacts in

during the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.

naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.

the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.

TonusOH

The 607/587 debate remains relevant* because the WTS couldn't just drop that date, since it was tied to the 1914 predictions that Russell made. There is a lot that they can revise, such as the predictions themselves, which they modified to make it seem as if Russell was given direction from Jehovah, and which was a big part of the sales pitch for so long. But Russell's math needed the year 607BC to get to 1914, so they couldn't give in on that point.

I wonder, though, if that will change soon. 1914 itself is becoming an albatross for the WTS and no longer serves the purpose it once did, both as a recruiting device and as a way to keep the rank and file on tenterhooks. I suspect that they will ignore it and let it fade into irrelevance until they feel it's safe to discard it, at which point they'll gain new light about the 607/587 dates.

* Well, I mean that it remains relevant as a discussion point amongst JW supporters and critics. It serves more as a curiosity for exJWs and a defend-at-all-costs concept for JWs, at least for now.

7

Money Making Ideas

by LostintheFog1999 in

when i was in i can remember reading wt commands not to use the brothers and sisters as an opportunity for business ventures.. i guess in hindsight it was because the wtc was already doing it and didn't want competition for the resources of income being limited.

in addition to buying all your own literature and magazines, who else remembers the book covers, notebooks, bookmarks, etc sold at conventions with the assembly theme stamped on the front in gold coloured lettering?

nowadays people claiming to be jws have oodles of websites selling all manner of goods to them, many infringing the jw logo.

TonusOH

I can recall something like that during the 80s or 90s, but that was around the time that there were lots of MLM schemes going around, where you were trying to sell some third-party product, and you could make more money by recruiting others to sell the same product. I think you would get a small cut from the sales of the people you recruited. So the idea was to get as many people onboard as you could.

You didn't want to be too successful, since each person recruited was one less person to sell to.

But those schemes tend to encourage competitive behavior and trying to sell as much product as you can, which leads to pressure tactics and eventually hard feelings and possibly a major headache for the elders if it gets big enough. And few people actually make enough money to feel that the whole venture was worthwhile.

60

WARNING! If you DELIBERATELY avoid the JW memorial.....

by BoogerMan in

.......you will experience a fate worse than death!

you have been warned - don't come crying to me if you don't go.

you've got one month to change your mind.

TonusOH

DJW: I think it is strange that the Bible says "The wages of sin is death" since every multi-cellular organism on Earth dies (not just humans), even plants, but plants don't sin. Right?

That does bring up some interesting questions. We can presume that the phrase was meant to apply to humans, who have a special relationship with God. So the question is, did non-humans always have a finite lifespan? Or did God decide that, if humans couldn't live forever, neither would any other life? God did not hesitate to include all non-human life when he caused the worldwide flood, aside from those collected by the humans He chose to save (some of which were sacrificed shortly after the end of the flood). So He did not seem to have the same concern at that time as He would be credited with later by Jesus (ie, the sparrows and the lilies of the field).

38

Would I be disfellowshiped for this?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

if a publisher openly told the elders that they thought the gb were wrong about some or a lot of things, but said they will not share these thoughts with anyone else then would this be a case of disassociation disgfellowship?.

my guess is lots of elders meetings and shepherding calls to try to get you to say something they could use against you.. but what would be the sin in which you are not repented?.

the only reason to be dissed is non repentance?.

TonusOH

Jehovahisgod: Yeah I've got a long list of things I disagree with.

Are any of them doctrinal? If the list is long enough, I'd assume you are looking for a religion that is a better fit.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

TonusOH

He could open the path to recovering his support if he ever got out of his own way. I don't think he's wired that way, though. He has to crush his enemies and win an unambiguous victory. He doesn't seem capable of letting go and getting past it.

38

Would I be disfellowshiped for this?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

if a publisher openly told the elders that they thought the gb were wrong about some or a lot of things, but said they will not share these thoughts with anyone else then would this be a case of disassociation disgfellowship?.

my guess is lots of elders meetings and shepherding calls to try to get you to say something they could use against you.. but what would be the sin in which you are not repented?.

the only reason to be dissed is non repentance?.

TonusOH

Jehovahisgod: If you disagree with somebody in authority like the elders or the governing body you're going to get disfellowshipped not for disagreeing but for plain stupidity!

That's a bit broad and hardly accurate. Someone who expresses teachings or ideas that are not in line with the WTS teachings/ideas will probably get a talking to, and possibly a judicial committee if they ignore warnings to stop. If they insist on continuing to express those ideas, they would likely be disfellowshipped for apostasy.

57

Court case Jehovah's Witnesses Norway kicked off

by AndersonsInfo in

https://cne.news/article/2827-court-case-jehovah-s-witnesses-norway-kicked-off.

norwegian jehovah's witnesses are in court this wednesday and thursday.

they are fighting the government's decision to remove their registration as a religious community.. .

TonusOH

Compare disfellowshipping someone to a jail sentence: the DF'ed person is free to move about as he pleases, but his friends and family cannot speak to him, lest they also be DF'ed. The jailed person is not free to move about as he pleases, but his friends and family can continue to have contact with him, without adverse risk.

Compare shunning to a restraining order: a restraining order can be requested by a person who feels threatened by another and seeks a legal ruling to force that person to stay outside of a proscribed distance, or avoid certain methods of interaction. Shunning is mandated by an organization, is not done at the request of an individual, and cannot be rescinded by anyone but the organization.

If the government of the Netherlands had never allowed clergy to sign marriage licenses and had not agreed to subsidize religions with an annual stipend, JWs would still be able to practice their religion, including the ability to disfellowship and shun their members. As the WTS claims to be no part of this world, they should not really have an issue with this ruling, and should hold it up as an example of how they remain separate from the world unlike other religious organizations.

76

Submission and stupid rules

by Lady Lee in

what a load of crap this stupid belief was.

i'll give you a couple of examples.

i was the sign language interpreter for our congregation and there was about 15-20 deaf who regularly showed up.

TonusOH

Lee Marsh: Men have it hard.

Pun intended? 😇

57

Court case Jehovah's Witnesses Norway kicked off

by AndersonsInfo in

https://cne.news/article/2827-court-case-jehovah-s-witnesses-norway-kicked-off.

norwegian jehovah's witnesses are in court this wednesday and thursday.

they are fighting the government's decision to remove their registration as a religious community.. .

TonusOH

But they would still have the freedom to practice their religion. Taking away benefits that have no impact on their freedom to practice doesn't seem like tyranny. How is that the same as jail or restraining orders?

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

TonusOH

BORG OFF: Nicoloau if that was true of ray franz would you want Cof C taken off the shelf so no one can read it?

I don't think people have been asking for Evans's book to be restricted or his videos taken down. We want people to know who and what he is so that they can make decisions about him with a full understanding of what they are getting into. If Ray Franz was anything like Evans, I would want to know that before offering to promote his work or support it financially.

Helping people is great, and deserves some gratitude. Being a terrible husband and father is awful, and deserves some condemnation. Treating fellow exJWs like garbage is awful, and people should know about that if they are thinking about giving him money. None of that means that his book or videos need to disappear. Or that he needs to stop producing books or videos. But I think it's fair to temper the good with the bad, and in his case the bad is really, really bad.