Posts by TonusOH

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: But, he does desire a relationship with us, because relationship is a requirement of love, his chief attribute.

I don't see how god can personify love, at least not as humans understand it and express it. He does things that we do not expect from a loving person, much less a being of such immense power and freedom to act.

You mention intrinsic versus instrumental value, and I am brought back to a point I made elsewhere before- that this is an example of the idea that god is necessary. That he has to exist. It is a reminder that we cannot positively demonstrate god, we can only do so by some form of a process of elimination. If X is not possible without a god, then a god must exist.

There is an alternative- we don't know enough about X yet. Thus far, anytime we learn about X, we don't find god. This works against the idea of a god who wants a relationship with us, or who sees value in us.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

TonusOH

Journeyman: "Still deciding" - in other words, it must be really bad.

That didn't stop him from posting the first one.

4

"Jehovah Will Help You Deal With Life’s Uncertainties" - WT Study Edition | April 2023

by aqwsed12345 in

i'm talking about paragraph 15 of this article:.

the title of the study article: "jehovah will help you deal with life’s uncertainties".

accordingly, does it count as an "unexpected difficulty" when it turns out that a prophet's declaration made in the name of god does not come true?

TonusOH

It sounds like an attempt to have it both ways. If the prediction they make comes to pass, they can claim that it is evidence that they have Jehovah's favor. If the prediction does not come to pass, they can explain that they didn't claim to be prophets and thus the failed prediction does not imply that they lack God's favor. The WTS has occasionally gone further and accused the rank and file of reading too much into a prediction, and thus having unreasonable expectations.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: Christians can logically answer this question because of their belief that we are made in the image of a loving God and have intrinsic value.

Do we really have intrinsic value in a universe created by god? God does not need us. No matter how I behave in my lifetime, god could justifiably end my existence. Who would stop him? My behavior, good or ill, does not affect him, it does not change him. It cannot, by definition, since god is already perfect.

Putting aside the difficulty of reconciling his actions with the notion that he personifies love, we can logically recognize that we do not have intrinsic value in a reality where we are created by this being.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

TonusOH

Iriddle80: God had to do certain things

I don't see where god "had to" do anything. He is free to act and no one can challenge him. When some of his questionable actions are mentioned, we are reminded that god is not on the same moral plane as humanity is. He is good, his essential nature is good, his every action and decision are good. There is an endless set of options for how he could proceed at any time.

If the world is in this condition, it is entirely god's fault. Or, it is exactly as he wishes for it to be.

196

would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

a good question is would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?.

were you more happy pimi?

are all the pimis more happy than the the pimos or the pomos?.

TonusOH

That was ExB quoting me, cofty. I got the impression about Conway Morris from the Wikipedia entry for him:

He has lectured at the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion on "Evolution and fine-tuning in Biology". He gave the University of Edinburgh Gifford Lectures for 2007 in a series titled "Darwin's Compass: How Evolution Discovers the Song of Creation". In these lectures Conway Morris makes several claims that evolution is compatible with belief in the existence of a God.

196

would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

a good question is would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?.

were you more happy pimi?

are all the pimis more happy than the the pimos or the pomos?.

TonusOH

That isn't what I am referring to. I am asking if you accept evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life, regardless of whether it happened by chance or by design. The question of what 'guided' it can remain open, but even the biologists who think it was design do not doubt that life evolved.

196

would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

a good question is would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?.

were you more happy pimi?

are all the pimis more happy than the the pimos or the pomos?.

TonusOH

But you're good with evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life on the planet?

196

would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

a good question is would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?.

were you more happy pimi?

are all the pimis more happy than the the pimos or the pomos?.

TonusOH

Yes, that's correct. Conway Morris believes (and has made his case in lectures -and a book?) that a study of evolution can lead one to the conclusion that there is an intelligence behind it. And there are many other scientists -including evolutionary biologists- who believe that god exists, and that evolution explains the diversity of life on the planet.

If ExB accepts this much, I think it's a step forward.

36

We are now 23 Years past Armageddon as the GB stated

by JohnTron7 in

so the end was going to come by 2000 as documented in the magazines back in the late 80's early 90's.. so how did they get the time off so badly ( over two decades and still nothing) since the gb is jehovah's earthly mouthpiece right ?

.

TonusOH

"Millions now living will never die" was from Rutherford's speech at the 1922 convention, if memory serves. I think it was modified to "may never die" at some point in order to soften the impact, though they also decided to forget Rutherford's predictions regarding the return of the 'worthies' in 1925, which would presumably precipitate the end. When that is taken into account, you can understand why he was so confident in his 1922 claim.

Then he got it wrong, and most of it was either forgotten or modified (and then forgotten).