Posts by TonusOH

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

TonusOH

Halcon: The lengthy and rather scientific process you theorized

Oh, I don't think it was scientific at all. Which is one reason why it would take so long to develop. I am not talking about a group of nomads hashing out the cause of lightning over a few evenings and coming up with a long explanation. Even today, we have a tendency to jump to conclusions on insufficient evidence in order to deal with things we may not understand. This trait would likely have been dialed up in a time when every bush might harbor a nasty surprise and getting a small cut might be catastrophic. I'm talking about ideas that probably took generations to begin to take shape, and in decidely non-scientific ways.

Again, if there was a god who interacted with these people and guided them at some point, the development of religion would have begun along a single and clear track. With the certainty of god as a starting point, the answers would not have been made up or random. And, presumably, those humans would have had answers to questions about lightining and infections that would have stood the test of time. Their approach was not scientific or methodical. It was reactionary and driven by fear and a need to have an answer immediately, even if the answer wasn't accurate.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

TonusOH

Halcon: Suddenly these primitive people, supposedly more evolved til then to primarily just survive, don't sound so primitive after all.

I'm not sure I understand how my statement led you to this conclusion.

Halcon: But again, why would they go through all this to begin with?

I don't know. Curiosity? A desire for some degree of certainty? These are traits we still carry with us today, and they likely would have been much more useful in our distant past. Our complex social structures and behaviors would have existed back then, and also been more useful to develop in that environment. I think it is inevitable that human communities would go through this, over and over. It's how our brains work.

Halcon: The appearance of God and gods in ancient writings everywhere simply affirms how either the concept of God was instinctive in man

I think that religion is a form of tribalism, a way to tighten the bonds in a social group by defining us/them boundaries. We see this in many mammal species, and especially in many primate species. We also see this in how humans behave today in many other areas of our lives. Is it reasonable to invest as much of ourselves into sports teams as some people do? Or actors? Or made up story worlds? Of course not. Yet, we do.

Religion is the ultimate expression of this behavior. That primitive groups with a sharp focus on survival would develop it as they did, with gods and rituals and rules and ceremonies and deep emotional commitments, does not seem far-fetched.

3062

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: did someone just say he has made two videos while tripping on mushrooms?

One of his supporters paid for him to fly to Canada and see some nutcase who gave him a dose of hallucinogeic shrooms. Evans asked for the max dose and temporarily found a god who told him whatever it was that he wanted to hear.

PS: Psychoactive mushrooms are only legal in Canada for medical use. Evans actually had to stop taking legally prescribed antidepressants in order to take them, and did so without the supervision of a doctor- he just stopped cold turkey.

I guess god made him feel a bit uncomfortable on his second trip, and now he's annoyed. Even god should know better than to get on Lloyd's bad side, I suppose. Guess whose going to be added to the lawsuit next?

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

TonusOH

Halcon: Your claim that it was God, because God wasn't falsifiable assumes a great degree of thought and mental capacity on the part of its originator.

Only if we presume that the concept was originated all at once, in an advanced/completed form, and isolated from any other ideas. I don't think this is the case. The creation of god(s) was probably a very lengthy, gradual process. Many ideas and explanations would have been offered. The ideas and explanations that could be most easily tested and challenged would have been filtered out over time. The ones that were difficult or impossible to disprove would have held on longer, and eventually been refined.

This is why I think it's notable that there wasn't always one specific god who was put forth as an explanation. The Bible describes a god who was known to some humans personally, who performed miraculous feats that people witnessed, who was known to humanity right from the start. And yet, we find older writings and older gods than the one described in the Bible. We find older explanations for the creation of the world, and older descriptions of how things came to be. It fits more readily with the idea of gods as handy --if useless-- explanations for the unknown.

3062

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

That Twitter post is just begging for a reply from @cedarsjwsurvey

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

TonusOH

Halcon: was it mere coincidence that instead of anything else as an explanation, time and time again it had to be God?

I don't know if god was always the explanation for the unknown. It may have been the most convenient explanation because it wasn't falsifiable. If there was a single being responsible, one would expect that every explanation would refer to this specific being. But, over the course of human history, entire pantheons were invented and catalogued and used to explain the unknown.

Once we developed a more reliable method for discovery and learning, we began to find testable explanations for the mysteries of nature and the universe. To date, we have not stumbled upon god as one of them. I think this is not a coincidence.

40

Was it Designed?

by Jeffro in

the jw website is currently featuring a piece: the shell of the diabolical ironclad beetle—was it designed?

it is part of their regular tedious 'was it designed?

' series that purports that very very specific animal species must have been specifically designed because of some seemingly amazing feature.. but they seem completely unaware that this directly contradicts their notion that only very broad 'kinds' were required on the mythical 'ark'.

TonusOH

Creationists 'accept' micro-evolution because they have no choice. It is so well-known and attested to that to deny it is to enter into flat-Earth territory. Speciation has also been observed, but that isn't drastic enough to convince people who think the 'crocoduck' is a legitimate objection.

15

Taylor Swift owes me a new shirt this morning

by Mickey mouse in

jw
friends

go listen to the opening verse of the smallest man who ever lived..

TonusOH

Maybe this is why they relaxed the dress code!

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

TonusOH

Halcon: Why would he undermine himself by claiming someone was greater than man?

To offload responsibility? To assign himself an authority that he didn't earn? To grift as efficiently as possible?

Granted, the more likely explanation is that it began as a way to explain the (then) inexplicable. The development of gods into powerful invisible friends would come gradually, and the abuse of the concept would follow soon after, is my guess. The art of the con has existed about as long as human societies have.

40

Was it Designed?

by Jeffro in

the jw website is currently featuring a piece: the shell of the diabolical ironclad beetle—was it designed?

it is part of their regular tedious 'was it designed?

' series that purports that very very specific animal species must have been specifically designed because of some seemingly amazing feature.. but they seem completely unaware that this directly contradicts their notion that only very broad 'kinds' were required on the mythical 'ark'.

TonusOH

Flood myths are easy to account for. Humans --like many living things-- need water to live and thrive, so they would stay near sources of freshwater even when they were nomadic groups. The development of farming allowed for the establishment of communities that stayed in one place-- and that would have been near sources of freshwater.

Thus, floods would have been a common experience, and massive, catastrophic floods would have occurred now and then. These would have become a part of their tales and legends, with the usual exaggeration that comes with time. Later generations would only know the basics of these tales and would build their own mythologies around them, with gods and heroes and extraordinary outcomes.