Posts by TonusOH

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

Simon: They begin at least 100 years after his claimed life.

To drive this point home, the post after yours mentions the following:

Mara Bar Serapion (born 50 AD). The original letter that may contain references to Christianity was written sometime between 73 AD and 300 AD.

Early Christian Writers (ca 50-157 AD), bearing in mind that none of their original writings have been found, just copies of copies of copies, none before the second century, if I am not mistaken.

Thallus (ca 55 AD), whose writings are lost. A reference (800 AD) to a reference (220 AD) of his writings appears to be what remains.

Josephus (ca 93 AD), whose mentions of Jesus are either mistaken or very likely a forgery.

Pliny the Younger, born around 61 AD.

In other words, god took on a body of flesh, came to Earth, performed miracles and gave moving speeches, caused an earthquake and eclipse and raised many dead on the day he died... and no one thought to talk about him for some 50-200 years.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

FreeTheMasons: But you can't say he didn't let you know he was on the way.

People have been warning us that Jesus's arrival is imminent for the past two thousand years. With few exceptions, those warnings have had the expectation that the event would happen within the lifetime of those who first heard them. Those warnings continue to this day; I spent decades spreading this warning from door-to-door myself! I spent all of those years hearing (and believing) people say that the end was so close, that it might be any day now. My mother was convinced it would happen before the end of the 70s. Then the 80s. Then the 90s. She is convinced it will happen before the end of the 2020s.

The problem isn't that we haven't been warned. The problem is that we are constantly promised that he will arrive very, very soon. That his appearance is imminent. That it's closer than we think. That it may already be too late!!! When we point out that this has been going on for centuries, we are told that god works on a different timeline, and he is patient, and so on. It's a steady diet of "Jesus will return tomorrow, count on it" sprinkled with "don't be so impatient" when people start to get tired of it.

In any other facet of your life, you would recognize this as the classic "boy who cried wolf" scenario and ask people to stop wasting everyone's time. But this is religious belief, and the potential stakes are so high that behavior that we would otherwise dismiss becomes compelling. Think about how long these warnings have been made, how frequently they are made, the nature of these promises, and the fact that nothing ever happens.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

FreeTheMasons: Are you going to wait until you actually see Jesus in the flesh?

That works for me.

3032

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

There is usually a rebound a few days later, but he's inching towards 300.

He'll probably react by going on another holiday.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

FreeTheMasons: I can tell you you're about to be run over by a bus, but if you don't want to heed the warning, it doesn't matter how much I tell you about the evidence I've seen.

If you tell Pete that a bus is approaching and he looks and doesn't see a bus, it's very likely that there is no bus. Religious figures --including no shortage of Christians-- have been warning us about an oncoming bus for centuries now, and the road remains clear. At some point, we may begin to get the impression that there is no bus, regardless of how sincere the warnings are meant to be.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

ukpimo: So you're saying there is an off chance that someone could be believable, but only if we actually lived at the time that person lived?

I'm saying that it is reasonable to accept that a person existed at a particular time in history, as so many people have. And it is reasonable to accept that they did things a normal person could do, like give speeches and promote charity and experience mistreatment or even death at the hands of their enemies. Even if we don't know any of this for sure, it's not outside of the norm. It happens all the time. It happens today.

If we say that a person who existed also performed miracles, or was assigned a task by an angel, or by a deity... these are not things that happen frequently. They may not even happen at all. Even when we cannot determine for certain that a person existed in the past (due to the lack of evidence in the archeological record), we can accept that they probably did. And we can accept some claims at face value, if they describe actions that are not out of the ordinary.

Because the evidence is so sparse, claims that any historical figure did extraordinary things must be met with skepticism, and two reasons come to mind: for one, as the evidence for past figures becomes more reliable, such claims conveniently begin to dry up. Two, people will accept such claims for one figure, but reject those claims for all others. This isn't based on a specific and unbiased approach, but on what the person already believes, which is a bad way to approach evidence.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

You don't have to convince me that Smith and Mohammad were crappy people. However, that's not my point. Both of those men are far better attested to than Jesus, but the fact that they existed does not convince Christians that their more extravagant claims are true. "This person existed" is simply not sufficient.

On the other hand, there are millions --billions, even-- of people who do believe that Smith and Mohammad were divinely inspired. Why? Presuppositions. Very powerful, yet very clearly unreliable. If we apply the same approach to all of these claims, they all fall short. To the extent that they are believed, it is entirely dependent on what we believed before we had a chance to put them to the test.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

[deleted duplicate post]

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

ukpimo: [...]Christians made themselves up from some literary fandom they created

This would not be different from every other religion, would it? Those are, in the view of the Christian, invented. The Christian may accept that a man named Mohammad existed, but they do not believe that he was commissioned by God to write a final testament that superceded all others, or that he flew to heaven on a winged horse. We are confident that Joseph Smith existed and that he established a new branch of Christianity, but we do not believe that his addendum to the Bible is legitimate. Same for an endless list of religious figures across a multitude of religions, both current and forgotten.

The problem is not that I see Christianity through some deliberately warped lens (not anymore, at least). The problem is that when I apply that filter to any other religion, they are just as legitimate and 'true.' Religion relies heavily on presuppositions, which are things we believe without corroboration. It's how people with completely different beliefs can be just as certain that they are right and the other person is wrong. Remove the presupposition, and pretty much every religion ends up in the same place-- lacking any evidence.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

FreeTheMasons: It is a flaw. It is a flaw in their thinking.

So, we have established that there is an explanation for the concept that someone would die for a lie. These men, with their flawed thinking, rejected an obvious truth and preferred to die for an obvious lie. I can apply this to the apostles, then. Why would they be willing to die for their belief? Because their thinking was flawed, messed up, not logical.

The pharisees saw Jesus as a man who claimed godhood, the apostles saw him as God made flesh. The former seems to be much more likely to be true. After all, even religious people reject every other such claim.

However, that wasn't what I was referring to when I spoke of a flaw. The flaw I refer to is the ambiguity of the Bible itself. A work so open to interpretation that even those who believe in it have spent centuries hopelessly divided in how to interpret it. These divisions have been significant enough to lead to mistreatment and even bloodshed. A book that is supposed to have been authored by an unmatched intellect who wants us all to achieve salvation and serve him as a unified group, yet so poorly written that even now we cannot come to a consensus on what it says, so that people accuse each other of being deranged or mislead or just evil. That's the flaw.

If it is the word of a divine being, we're in for a very unpleasant eternity.