TonusOH

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Posts by TonusOH

• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

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  TonusOH

  Sea Breeze: Are you good with the commonly accepted definition of God

  Yes, we can use that definition.

  Halcon: And so, would you choose sides with him?

  I don't see what difference this makes.
• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  Sea Breeze: God is described as omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresence.

  How does this address any of my points about the nature of this god? All of these qualities are compatible with a being who wants his creation to suffer, who sees suffering as an important and valuable trait. This utterly unstoppable and irresistible force even arranged to be tortured to death by his lowly creation, a completely unnecessary experience, to address a problem with his design in the most round-about fashion.

  We can settle on any definition of god that you want. None of them address the problems that arise when we look at his actions and consider what they tell us about him.
• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  Halcon: You say you are not confusing God with man but this was your most recent statement above when explaining your thoughts on God.

  As I said, I am judging him by his actions and by his words. I don't see the issue here.
• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  Halcon: You're confusing God with man again.

  No, I'm not. I'm referring to Yahweh, and his actions, and what they tell us about him.
• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  Sea Breeze: And, it is the premise behind this proposition that seems so puzzling to others.

  The premise is literally "judge him by his actions." If this is puzzling, I daresay the issue is not with the premise.

  Sea Breeze: when we are all using the same definition, your argument immediately falls apart.

  Your definition is incomplete, in order to match your presuppositions about what your god is supposed to be. It is not my argument that falls apart, it is the view of god as being only the things you choose to allow, while ignoring the actions that contradict them.

  Craig's approach is just a form of "mysterious ways." When god does something that appears wrong, or mistaken, or brutal, or wicked, Craig insists that there must be more to it than we can see on the surface. The problem with this is twofold: for one, many of these actions are pretty clear. Two, it means that we cannot claim to understand him at all, since even the good things he does might be misleading. It is, therefore, useless as an argument.

  Halcon: Once again you didn't finish the list. He is also loving, patient, peaceful, considerate, even compassionate according to Christ.

  The possibility that god might do something loving or kind does not worry us, for obvious reasons. The possibility that he is irrational, violent, and unpredictable should. Many abusive people are also capable of kindness and compassion. It is not those moments that worry their victims.
• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  Halcon: People like Tonus cannot fathom that God is both capable of giving punishment and giving reward.

  No, no. I understand that just fine. The point that I am (continually) making is that we should judge god by his actions. By his attitude. By his words and his approach. By all of them.

  I have no issue with recognizing the nature of a being of near-limitless power and strength who chooses to impose his rules on the universe and the people he created. But we have to also recognize what this says about him, and not only try to define him by what we want him to be. For example, trying to lay responsibility for outcomes at the feet of his creation-- an attitude that does not make sense in any context, but moreso in this one.

  We can go with god's self-descriptions, which seems to me to be the best approach. Who is this god? He is jealous. He is vengeful. He is given to anger, and that anger leads to precipitate action. Indeed, the god that most Christians worship today is shaped by the descriptions given by others in the New Testament. And these do not align with a being who uses his power in the manner Yahweh does in the Old Testament.

  We have to take all of it into account, and not try to dismiss the stuff that doesn't fit. Either it fits --and god is very different from what we desire for him to be-- or it doesn't --and this god cannot be real.
• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  Halcon: Are we talking about man's definition of God again?

  I am talking about what god's actions --as depicted in his holy book-- say about him, and am willing to use both god's and man's definitions as a basis of comparison. If these do not align with what we know about him, then we must understand why, otherwise it is difficult to believe that he is real.
• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  Halcon: Yet the scriptures state Jesus healed a man's useless hand[...]

  So we ignore the actions that contradict the definition and only consider the ones that don't? That gives us an incomplete understanding of who god is, doesn't it?
• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  Halcon: On the contrary, God's very explicit self definition solves the problem of what exactly he is capable of doing minus the confusion caused by man.

  But it does not resolve the contradiction of how he defines himself versus the way his actions define him. The confusion comes from trying to square that circle. God's actions are not the actions of someone who is loving, compassionate, merciful, and so on. In short, he defines himself out of possible existence.
• 
  135

  Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

  that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  God's own definition of himself does not seem to change the problem, because his actions don't align with someone who is compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, loving, faithful, and so on. Indeed, those descriptions are followed by the claim that he will unjustly burden children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren for the sins of their forebears. Sins which wouldn't exist in a world created by a loving and compassionate being.

  The only change is that we can now affirm that scripture is at odds with itself, which reinforces the point I made.