Posts by TonusOH

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Halcon: We've established that God is both capable of giving eternal punishment and eternal reward

We both have accepted this as a given.

So, we have a god who designed a universe where people will always suffer. He himself understood this, as he noted that a lot of people would choose the path to destruction. He gave humanity a choice between bliss and suffering, knowing that many would choose suffering. He could have eliminated that choice and offered only bliss. Then, no one would suffer, which is something he claims to want.

So, even if we blame humans for their choices, we still exist in a universe where god knew that most would suffer. And they would suffer for all eternity. There will always be suffering in his universe, regardless of who we blame. Even if we take the step of absolving him for the failure of a population that he designed and created, we have a universe where there will always be suffering. It seems to me that he wants there to be suffering.

We do have the thorny issue of god allowing a condition to exist that is in direct opposition to what he claims to want. Thus, we must assume he is confused or lying. Neither of these is a bad thing, since we cannot judge him on human terms. They simply are. This also is not altered if we accept that his god is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He can be all of these things and still be beyond our notions of good and evil, so that his duplicity and desire for the suffering of others are true for him, yet not a good or bad thing.

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135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Halcon: If you can accept that there is an aspect of reality that cannot be seen, heard, touched or even proven..which are our thoughts and emotions, which are the most real parts of ourselves, then it's not a stretch to believe in the existence of God.

I believe that god may exist, since my limited understanding of physics makes the origins of the universe seem fantastic either way. I do accept that those who have advanced physics degrees appear to make sense of it, but to me it sounds like magic. Even this approach requires that I am ignorant of the science, but I suspect I am like a great many people in this.

If this god does exist, then this universe is most likely an experiment of some kind. This being cares about us only as data; it doesn't care about us as individuals, nor does our survival concern it at all. It launched a universe, it is learning from it, and at some point the experiment will end.

This short and simple concept fits our current universe and our current world just fine. It answers many of the difficult questions without creating any of its own (aside from the obvious one). Once we go down the road of describing this god through a holy book, there are expectations that must be met. If there was a god that cared about our outcomes --as individuals or as a race-- it must make itself known. The fact that no religion is able to convince even half of humanity that their god is the right one --to say nothing of the differences within any religion-- makes the idea of such a god untenable.

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135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Sea Breeze: Are you good with the commonly accepted definition of God

Yes, we can use that definition.

Halcon: And so, would you choose sides with him?

I don't see what difference this makes.

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135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Sea Breeze: God is described as omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresence.

How does this address any of my points about the nature of this god? All of these qualities are compatible with a being who wants his creation to suffer, who sees suffering as an important and valuable trait. This utterly unstoppable and irresistible force even arranged to be tortured to death by his lowly creation, a completely unnecessary experience, to address a problem with his design in the most round-about fashion.

We can settle on any definition of god that you want. None of them address the problems that arise when we look at his actions and consider what they tell us about him.

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+1 / -0

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Halcon: You say you are not confusing God with man but this was your most recent statement above when explaining your thoughts on God.

As I said, I am judging him by his actions and by his words. I don't see the issue here.

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135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Halcon: You're confusing God with man again.

No, I'm not. I'm referring to Yahweh, and his actions, and what they tell us about him.

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+2 / -0

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Sea Breeze: And, it is the premise behind this proposition that seems so puzzling to others.

The premise is literally "judge him by his actions." If this is puzzling, I daresay the issue is not with the premise.

Sea Breeze: when we are all using the same definition, your argument immediately falls apart.

Your definition is incomplete, in order to match your presuppositions about what your god is supposed to be. It is not my argument that falls apart, it is the view of god as being only the things you choose to allow, while ignoring the actions that contradict them.

Craig's approach is just a form of "mysterious ways." When god does something that appears wrong, or mistaken, or brutal, or wicked, Craig insists that there must be more to it than we can see on the surface. The problem with this is twofold: for one, many of these actions are pretty clear. Two, it means that we cannot claim to understand him at all, since even the good things he does might be misleading. It is, therefore, useless as an argument.

Halcon: Once again you didn't finish the list. He is also loving, patient, peaceful, considerate, even compassionate according to Christ.

The possibility that god might do something loving or kind does not worry us, for obvious reasons. The possibility that he is irrational, violent, and unpredictable should. Many abusive people are also capable of kindness and compassion. It is not those moments that worry their victims.

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+3 / -0

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Halcon: People like Tonus cannot fathom that God is both capable of giving punishment and giving reward.

No, no. I understand that just fine. The point that I am (continually) making is that we should judge god by his actions. By his attitude. By his words and his approach. By all of them.

I have no issue with recognizing the nature of a being of near-limitless power and strength who chooses to impose his rules on the universe and the people he created. But we have to also recognize what this says about him, and not only try to define him by what we want him to be. For example, trying to lay responsibility for outcomes at the feet of his creation-- an attitude that does not make sense in any context, but moreso in this one.

We can go with god's self-descriptions, which seems to me to be the best approach. Who is this god? He is jealous. He is vengeful. He is given to anger, and that anger leads to precipitate action. Indeed, the god that most Christians worship today is shaped by the descriptions given by others in the New Testament. And these do not align with a being who uses his power in the manner Yahweh does in the Old Testament.

We have to take all of it into account, and not try to dismiss the stuff that doesn't fit. Either it fits --and god is very different from what we desire for him to be-- or it doesn't --and this god cannot be real.

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135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Halcon: Are we talking about man's definition of God again?

I am talking about what god's actions --as depicted in his holy book-- say about him, and am willing to use both god's and man's definitions as a basis of comparison. If these do not align with what we know about him, then we must understand why, otherwise it is difficult to believe that he is real.

Link

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

2 months ago

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

a month ago

TonusOH 2 months ago

Halcon: Yet the scriptures state Jesus healed a man's useless hand[...]

So we ignore the actions that contradict the definition and only consider the ones that don't? That gives us an incomplete understanding of who god is, doesn't it?

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