Posts by TonusOH

33

Merry Christmas

by jhine in

i don't think that it's too early for my annual merry christmas thread .

merry christmas everyone.

jan .

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

TonusOH

Diogenesister: I'm not sure if iicsa gave a reason for not requesting the data. It may be that they did not have the power, did not have the remit, or....and this is my theory .....that in their view the 'numbers' were not that relevent.

It could also be that they're not going to jump for every entitled crank who shows up without a pacifier and makes demands, hoping to use any action as a reason to very publicly pat himself on the back.

24

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses attend so many meeting?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

ronald curzan ( helper to the teaching committee ) gives a talk on the real reasons jehovah's witnesses should attend meetings.

it looks like the zoom meetings have softened up many witnesses.

many are probably turning off their cameras and zoning out.

TonusOH

If you are busy going to meetings and field service, there are two effects: you are present for the constant repetition of important points (such as: obey the GB without question) and you have little time for anything that might cause you to drift away. The issue they have with Zoom meetings is that they require so little preparation and participation. You get back a lot of time, and no one will find out that you didn't prepare for the meeting. If your field service consists mostly of writing letters, making calls, and standing next to a small magazine rack, you get back a lot of time as well, and are no longer bothered with having to practice the sales pitch.

Less time being indoctrinated and more time being free to think for yourself is a sure way to get someone to the point where they realize that they would rather be doing anything else. Then you start to connect the dots. Why don't I want to go to the meetings/field service? Because it sucks. Why does it suck? Hmm... this is a long list of reasons...

89

Myth of 1914

by peacefulpete in

the wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.

millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.

take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.

TonusOH

Raymond Franz's Crisis of Conscience deals with just about all of the dates that the WTS uses and has used. Here are quotes from just a few pages (revision 2004 of CoC):

Page 180: Issue of HERALD OF THE MORNING (C.T. Russell was an assitant editor) refers to the dates of 1843/4, 1874/8, and 1914 (when the 'Times of the Gentiles' end). Franz got the photocopy he used from the archives at Brooklyn.

Page 182: Russell, in the July 15, 1906 edition of The Watch Tower, tells of how he asked Nelson Barbour (the editor of the above issue of HOTM) to demonstrate the validity of 1874 as the date when Christ began to rule in heaven. He says "the evidence satisfied me. Being a person of positive convictions and fully consecrated to the Lord, I at once saw that the special times in which we live have an important bearing upon our duty and work as Christ's disciples; that, being in the time of harvest, the harvestwork should be done; and that present truth was the sickle by which the Lord would have us do a gathering and reaping work everywhere among his children."

Page 184, footnote 8: Refers to the book Prophecy, published in 1929. Pages 64,65 mentions 1874 as the date that Christ's invisible 'presence' began.

Page 184, footnote 9: Notes that the Cedar Point convention in 1922 is when the organization first began to shift the date of Christ's rule from 1878 to 1914.

Page 185: Refers to the January 1881 Watch Tower: "So, ours, [referring to the time of harvest] beginning in 1874 closes with the end of the "day of wrath' and end of the "times of the Gentiles,' 1914-- a similar and parallel period of 40 years."

Page 187: Quoting from the same January 1881 Watch Tower: "We shall now present what we adduce from the types and prophetic points as seeming to indicate the translation of the saints and closing of the door to the high calling by 1881."

Page 187: Quoting from Russell's 1889 book The Time Is At Hand, pages 239 and 247:

"Our Lord's presence as Bridegroom and Reaper was recognized during the first three and a half years, from A.D. 1874 to A.D. 1878. Since that time it has been emphatically manifest that the time had come in A.D. 1878 when kingly judgment should begin at the house of God."

"The year A.D. 1878, being the parelle of his assuming power and authority in the type, clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of kings, by our present, spiritual, invisible Lord-- the time of his taking to himself his great power to reign"

"...October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon, "as a great millstone cast into the sea," utterly destroyed as a system."

And so on. Like so many end-times prognosticators, Russell was convinced that these events were happening in his lifetime, or were centered around that period of time. Rutherford amplified this to an almost comical degree, making statements about 1918, 1920, and 1925, before he realized that his efforts were severely hurting recruitment and retaining of followers.

Franz covers a lot of it, using the WTS publications and almost always listing the magazine/book, along with the issues/pages in question. There's a lot of it there. Penton may have more, but I haven't yet read Apocalypse Delayed.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

TonusOH

Correct me if I am mistaken, but IMDB is a database of movie information, not a repository of movies or videos. That page may be a troll or harassment attempt, but I don't expect that the video will be posted there. It's possible that notifying them about the page could get it taken down, since I don't think IMDB is intended as a resource for random YT videos.

35

Tony & JW made it to Norweigian media - even a pic of "dat broadcast"

by Festus in

well well am3 made it to norweigian media with hsi rant about religouse persecution.. hereis the link.. share your thoughts.. ble nektet statstøtte: jehovas vitner vurderer juridiske skritt – vårt land (vl.no) .

TonusOH

That's what I was wondering. In the USA, the couple can go to their local City Hall and get a marriage license, and they're married. Simple as that. The wedding can still happen, it's only a ceremony after all. They just have to take that extra step to make it official.

I guess it's a slight inconvenience and a small loss in prestige. But not the end of the world.

43

Watchtower looses Norwegian Appeal

by Diogenesister in

watchtower has just lost its appeal in the norwegian courts over the withdrawal of the funding it receives from the government as an officially recognised religion.

the initial decision will now stand due to what the court termed 'exclusionary practices' which includes the witnesses barbaric practice of shunning minors, even by family members in their own homes.

the ministry of children and families have decided they are now no longer eligible for the state grant of 16 million norwegian kroner given to officially recognised religions.. the following is a statement has been issued, i have summarised if it isn't readable: .

TonusOH

Fisherman: The issue is whether shunning is child abuse legally.

I don't think that has to be the case. If it's illegal, then they can prosecute those who shun, and that doesn't seem practical.

However, they can attach conditions to the money they disburse to religious groups and organizations. Those may seem onerous and unfair to some of those groups, but this is money that the state donates to them voluntarily. JWs are willing to face persecution and even death to remain loyal to Jehovah. Not getting a free handout from a secular government should not be a problem. If they stay firm and reject the money, God will provide, won't He?

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

TonusOH

To clarify my earlier post on whether Evans can change: I believe anyone can change. In most scenarios, it is very difficult because so much of who we are is locked within our subconscious mind. We make excuses for that part of ourselves, and we rationalize that part of ourselves, and we cover for it as much as we can, because we are convinced that we are in full control of who we are. Our brains are quite messy things, sadly.

For most people, change on this level requires an epiphany, an event/realization that is so jarring that it forces changes on those parts of the mind that we normally can't reach. I've made reference to his need to 'hit rock bottom.' Most people who effect drastic changes do so only when they've fallen as far as they can, and the only way out is by taking an honest stock of themselves. That can be almost impossible, unless everything else has been stripped away and the only thing left is the self. No one else to blame.

Evans is, IMO, very far from rock bottom. As long as he can stay afloat on the financial and emotional support of a handful of loyal people, he needn't take a deep look at himself. That support may run out in time (and it seems inevitable that it will), but the longer it takes, the tougher it becomes to make an honest self-appraisal. Sometimes, instead of self-realization, bitterness takes over. If his reaction to losing it all is to keep blaming everyone else, then there is no hope for him.

Hence, he is his own biggest obstacle.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

TonusOH

It makes sense, he does come across as someone who is convinced of his own importance/relevance. We are all the center of our own little universe, but life regularly reminds us that we're not as important as we think, and every now-and-again we get put in our place. Some people do become quite important, and others reinforce that understanding by how they treat them.

Evans has experienced some of the celebrity worship that comes from working to build a presence, but he overestimated his influence and importance. I think that's the cause of the missteps that led him to this point, and it's also why he is having trouble recognizing how bad his situation has become. It can be tough to let go, once you've had even such a small taste of power.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

TonusOH

Making it a symbolic number could end up working for the WTS, seeing as the 1914 date is becoming something of an albatross. And based on their concept of "new light" (which involves them getting things wrong --by god's design!-- before getting them right... for now) they could claim that they were mislead into providing a critical date to show that they have Jehovah's favor (what? It could happen!), and now they have the requisite divine clarification to demonstrate that they're ready to lead the faithful into the next phase of God's Great and Convoluted Plan.