Posts by TonusOH

6

Attorney Irwin Zalkin explains the article, Pa. courts weigh whether JW's elders must report confessed child abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

the pennsylvania supreme court memorandum opinion that i posted on this discussion board yesterday was confusing enough for me to ask attorney irwin zalkin to explain the issues.

he promptly replied and gave me permission to post here the following important information that he provided.. "the pennsylvania supreme court memorandum opinion raises the question of whether jehovah’s witnesses (“jw’s”) elders, who are volunteer clergy, fall under an exception to the mandatory reporting law of the state of pennsylvania.

jw’s members of the ivy hill congregation of jw’s sued the pa department of human services (dhs) and asked the court to issue a judgment that as a matter of law makes jw’s elders exempt from pa’s mandatory reporting of known or suspected child abuse, including child sexual abuse.

TonusOH

Thank you for the effort put in to get this additional clarification.

It had never occurred to me that the WTS plays so loose with the clergy/penitent privilege. But what they state fits with my experience- records are kept for publishers, including who was DFed and why. The moment these are shared, that breaks the confidentiality they profess to hold sacred. And they may be shared at least a few times. With the branch office, with the HQ, with new/incoming elders, with elders at congregations the person moves to, and so on. And also... from conversations between elders and other people, including maybe those who aren't elders...

I think the law in the UK and Australia says that for CSA cases, this confidentiality must be waived and the authorities notified. The Australian RC investigating the WTS found that, contrary to the WTS's and elder's claims that they took CSA seriously and worked to protect children, they treated CSA cases like any other issue. And in some cases, they treated those other issues as more important than protecting victims. In the cases the RC heard, the clergy/penitent privilege does not explain some of the actions taken (or not taken).

47

The First Holocaust

by nicolaou in

please, please ignore all the scientific impossibilities here, that's not what this topic is about.. let's make the assumption as many christians do that the bible is historically accurate.

the noachian flood actually happened a little less than 4,500 years ago after which eight adults stepped off the ark to repopulate the planet.. that means that approximately 60 million lives had been snuffed out, a holocaust by anyone's estimation.

as if that isn't horrific enough just think about the babies, toddlers and young children god killed.. he drowned all of them, every single one.

TonusOH

KalebOutWest: First, the Noachin Deluge is the newer myth.

I was referring to the stories that follow in Genesis, such as the tower of Babel, which I also referred to in my earlier post.

KalebOutWest: As a Jew I can attest that we do not teach anywhere in our Scriptures that "God is love,"

I appreciate the different viewpoint, but my own viewpoint -the one I speak from- is as a former JW, a fundementalist Christian. This is the viewpoint I grew up with, and is the one I know. Naturally, it is the one I apply to my reading of the Bible and to my understanding of its contents.

KalebOutWest: As for reading these stories, we Jews know how to read them.

Cool. I wasn't raised Jewish. I know the Bible from the JW perspective, and from the Christian perspective. I have found it both entertaining and interesting to approach it just as it is written. And yes, I understand that it is a translation from other languages. That is actually a point I made in my earlier post, regarding the tower of Babel. But the English translations are what I have and what I know, so it makes sense that these are the ones I use.

Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired word of god, and that god possesses certain qualities, and that the stories in the Bible reflect those qualities. I find that not to be the case. My references to this god's actions in Genesis are some of many examples of this that I find in the Bible. "You hate god" or "You're angry at god" is a common deflection thrown at people who point these things out. But, even if this is the case, it doesn't invalidate my comments. Star Wars is a good analogy. We could spend a fair amount of time pointing out the flaws and plot holes in the various movies and books, and these would exist whether we hate Darth Vader or not.

47

The First Holocaust

by nicolaou in

please, please ignore all the scientific impossibilities here, that's not what this topic is about.. let's make the assumption as many christians do that the bible is historically accurate.

the noachian flood actually happened a little less than 4,500 years ago after which eight adults stepped off the ark to repopulate the planet.. that means that approximately 60 million lives had been snuffed out, a holocaust by anyone's estimation.

as if that isn't horrific enough just think about the babies, toddlers and young children god killed.. he drowned all of them, every single one.

TonusOH

KalebOutWest: Or are you just angry at God

No, because that wouldn't make sense. Not if approached rationally. I cannot be angry at a god that was made up, and I cannot be angry at long-dead people who created them and wrote stories. I can't even be angry at the people who believe in them, since I was one of those for a very long time.

I was pointing out how the stories present the god of the Bible from a straightforward reading. Many people believe that this being has certain specific qualities. Do these stories reflect them? Stories about the noachian flood (and those stories that followed) give the impression of a person who is a poor planner. A petty and vindictive tyrant. A frightful bully. These are not the qualities we were taught to understand that he had, nor are they the qualities that many who worship this god insist he has, or represents.

Growing up, I was taught to approach these stories in a certain way, which is very different from how they read if you just... you know... read them. So I do that, and I express my thoughts as to what such an approach reveals.

3069

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

DerekMoors: (which gets boos)

Did he add them to the litigation?

But also, thanks to everyone who made the sacrifice of watching that and giving the rest of us the summary. You won't grow those lost brain cells back, though. So take it easy.

11

Governing Body Culpability

by NotFormer in

i've seen people say something along the lines that the authorities would like to/have been trying to subpoena (members of) the gb (in csa cases).

my question is: why don't they?

if the gb are issuing orders to cover up evidence in csa cases, and otherwise interfere in justice being served in those cases, then they are accessories before (and after) the fact, and theoretically can be arrested and charged as such.

TonusOH

I suppose they need a case where they can establish the involvement of one or more specific GB members, though they can also do what the royal commission in Australia did, which was to ask questions regarding policy in order to determine if protocol had been followed by elders in the cases they were investigating. But that commission is not the same as a criminal investigation.

It might also be that, lacking a specific link to a specific case, prosecutors in the USA might be hesitant to involve the leaders of a church in an investigation in an attempt to demonstrate a broader problem. I am sure that many other church leaders would enjoy watching GB members squirm, but they would also realize that if the WTS can be treated like this, so can they. They would protest the treatment of the GB on general principle.

I do think that the USA should have investigations like the ones in the UK and Australia. But, again, there would likely be a lot of pushback against the idea, since the USA is still very religious.

24

What have I been doing for the last few years?

by Lee Marsh in

jw
friends

i used to be here a lot.

every single day almost.

and then i wasn't.. well let's start with a before.

TonusOH

Thank you for all of your work, Lee. Good to see that you are doing well.

47

The First Holocaust

by nicolaou in

please, please ignore all the scientific impossibilities here, that's not what this topic is about.. let's make the assumption as many christians do that the bible is historically accurate.

the noachian flood actually happened a little less than 4,500 years ago after which eight adults stepped off the ark to repopulate the planet.. that means that approximately 60 million lives had been snuffed out, a holocaust by anyone's estimation.

as if that isn't horrific enough just think about the babies, toddlers and young children god killed.. he drowned all of them, every single one.

TonusOH

The flood story also brings up an interesting thought: doesn't it speak to god's failures?

First, we have a world that he created and populated, a creation that he 'saw was good.' It doesn't take very long for the first two humans to wreck his plans by listening to a snake and eating a piece of fruit. Fast-forward, and the entire population of the world (with perhaps eight exceptions) is so iredeemable that god decides to wipe the slate clean. He kills everyone (except those eight) along with nearly all other life on the planet. Fresh start!

One of the first things Noah does is get drunk and strip naked, and his son sees this and tells his brothers. It appears that simply looking upon his drunk and naked dad is enough to earn this son his father's condemnation. These were the only people god felt justified in saving from destruction.

Before long, humanity gets together and begins building a tower that will stand as a testament to their unity and power. God himself wonders at this, figuring that if they accomplish it, nothing might be out of their grasp. So, this is a good thing, isn't it? NO! God panics, confuses their languages, and scatters them. Disunity and conflict are guaranteed for generations to come.

And today, we watch people try to interpret and discuss the Bible. And often, there are differences that are difficult to settle because the languages the texts were written in have their own differences from our modern versions and consensus seems impossible. This is thanks to that time when god invented a bunch of languages and forced them on to people in order to divide humanity.

Jehovah is not just a wicked person; he's embarrassingly incompetent.

10

Article: Pa. courts weigh whether Jehovah's Witnesses elders must report confessed child abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://pennrecord.com/stories/654791353-pa-courts-weigh-whether-jehovah-s-witnesses-elders-must-report-confessed-child-abuse.

harrisburg – after the commonwealth court of pennsylvania dismissed a petition from a group of jehovah’s witnesses nearly two years ago, which argued the confidentiality of their confessions shielded them from being mandatory reporters of child abuse, the supreme court of pennsylvania overruled their colleagues and decided the commonwealth court must re-examine the action.. in a 24-page memorandum opinion authored by state supreme court chief justice debra todd and handed down feb. 13, the court found that their commonwealth court contemporaries violated the coordinate jurisdiction rule – which states “judges of coordinate jurisdiction sitting in the same case should not overrule each other’s decisions” – by its initial pair of separate findings that ivy hill congregation of jehovah’s witnesses did not have proper standing against the commonwealth’s department of human services, and that a grant of declaratory relief would not terminate the legal controversy.. todd was joined in the opinion by supreme court of pennsylvania justices christine donohue, kevin m. dougherty, david n. wecht and sallie updyke mundy.

justices p. kevin brobson and daniel mccaffery did not participate in the consideration or decision of this matter.. “appellant is a congregation of approximately 140 individuals in philadelphia, pennsylvania, who follow the tenets of the jehovah’s witnesses religion.

TonusOH

They don't appear to be ashamed that they tried to hide behind technicalities in order to avoid reporting CSA to the authorities. "We didn't break the law," they exclaim, as a way of defending their refusal to protect children.

3069

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

"I am going to replicate my experience with dating girls, which is they lead you on and lead you on and lead you on, then they reject you"

That doesn't make him sound like a clueless loser at all!

Also, I wonder if he is saying that, aside from verifying that all the sex workers he 'dated' were at least 20-years-old, he also made sure they had a minimum IQ score? "Sorry, you're really gorgeous, but you don't seem too interested in deep and thoughtful philosophical conversation. Can I have my money back?"

12

Watchtower May 2024 Who is being referred to as 'we'?

by Listener in

this is the magazine that presents some of the 'new light' from the oct. 2023 annual meeting.

it discusses some of the things they have now decided they don't know and revised some of the things they do know, or think they know.

when they start discussing some of the things they do know, most of them are still guesses and they use qualifiers.

TonusOH

I also recall that they would use conditional language in the past. I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, so it may be that the 1975 fiasco led to them being a bit more circumspect during that time.

It just highlights a problem for the GB: If they are god's mouthpiece but also get things wrong and have to use conditional language, how can you trust anything they say? How can they justify accusing people of apostasy for not slavishly accepting everything they say, when they know they are getting some things wrong?