Posts by TonusOH

78

God, one person, or three?

by slimboyfat in

the trinity doctrine says god is three persons in one being.. yet the bible says god is one.. gal 3.20 a mediator, however, implies more than one party; but god is one.

niv.

gal 3.20 now a mediator is not for just one person, but god is one.

TonusOH

I feel bad for the holy ghost. Jehovah and Jesus get all of the attention. He's like the Curly Howard of the group.

194

GB Update #2, March 2024: Women allowed to wear pants, no ties/coats required if not giving a talk, & now able to greet DF ones in the KH!

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

you heard me correct, this is not a joke, and it is not april fools day!

the asl portion of the governing body updated #2 (march 2024) has been released a bit early and someone caught it.

summary: .

TonusOH

WingCommander: Lett the schism's commence at the local level!

That's what I am thinking as well. What shocks me the most is to see all of the changes pushed out together, instead of rolled out over time. Casual dress for church??? That might be the one that drove Tony Morris over the edge.

This is big.

26

ARTICLE: Jehovah’s Witnesses investing more than $50M on Woodbury project

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

https://libn.com/2024/03/04/jehovahs-witnesses-investing-more-than-50m-on-woodbury-project/.

long island business news.

march 4, 2024. the christian congregation of jehovah’s witnesses, which bought the former geico property in woodbury for $27 million in dec. 2022, plans to spend at least another $23 million to build an assembly hall and two support buildings on about half of the site.

TonusOH

I know at least a couple of JWs who know about the dirty laundry and some of the details that the average JW probably doesn't know, and they were among the most loyal and driven JWs I ever met. I think some people double-down when doubts come and their belief just becomes stronger.

I suppose some of the GB were/are like this, but it's hard to imagine. Fred Franz knew Russell's writings and Rutherford's writings. He knew they said things that turned out to be wrong. He knew that the organization's history was changed to cover for those false predictions. He made false predictions of his own! Did he really believe he had 'the truth'? As crazy as it sounds, he might have believed that all the way to the end.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: God who the standard of goodness

It's pretty easy to be the standard of goodness when anything you do or say is categorized as "good" no matter what. The actions I described above are all considered 'good' because god performed them. If you or I had treated a person the way Job was treated, no one would think we had done something good. If the reply to this is to point out that god is not a human and thus not bound by human morals, it demostrates how useless it is to say he is good.

If god can be the personification of good, even though he does things that are clearly not good, how can you trust him? If he can personify love, while doing things that are clearly not loving, how can you trust him? How do you trust a god who claims to want all to be saved, but also admits that a great many will not, even though it is totally within his power to save them all? If this god were real, the evidence that he is pure nightmare fuel is overwhelming.

26

A simple rebuttal to the recent 'Last Minute Repentance' change.

by nicolaou in

for decades, critics have pointed out the unfairness of god slaughtering billions in a future armageddon who never even met a jw much less heard their life-saving message.

(remember the contortions around the collective responsibility of nations?

) also, why do babies and children have to die simply because their parents rejected the witnesses?

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: The question is why can we do that?

The "why" is irrelevant. In fact, I can demonstrate that it is irrelevant even if god exists.

Let's start by dismissing the idea that god has 'written a law in our hearts.' If this was the case, laws and moral codes would be superfluous. Why do we need laws and moral codes? Because the most base human motivator -the one we are born knowing above all else- is selfishness. What do parents need to do for their children? Teach them and discipline them to help them rein in their selfish nature and become useful members of society.

How do they begin? By using that selfishness to help them develop empathy, which is the first basis of moral behavior. How many times have we heard a parent tell a child "how would you feel if this was done to you?" Even when we are older and able to use logic and reason to understand why we have codes and laws, we still use empathy to no small degree.

Later, we can use our knowledge and understanding and experience to draw logical conclusions regarding the need for laws and moral codes. Put simply, what would happen to a society that decided that murder, theft, rape, and deception were normal behavior that was not controlled? It would destroy itself. How does a human society thrive? By addressing our in-built selfishness, through moral codes and through laws and law enforcement. If goodness was our natural state, none of this would be necessary.

There, we have a simple approach to determining right and wrong. We use it all the time and throughout our lives. There should be no question that this is the case. Because we can do this, we do not need someone to implant these in our minds. Even if god existed, his input is unnecessary; we have a clear and sensible basis for developing morals and determining what is right and what is wrong. The history of human laws demonstrates that this development was gradual and tracked with societal development, which also makes sense. The bigger and more sophisticated our societies became, the more sophisticated our laws had to be.

That is why we can do that. It strikes me that a species that is so driven by base desires like selfishness and sexual gratification aligns more closely with evolution than with the kind of god you claim to worship. A god who creates a world like this comes across as something of a sadist.

37

They Came To The Door!

by NotFormer in

jw
friends

going door to door with their "memorial" invitation.

"so you can pass the emblems but nobody partakes?

them: "we can explain who is to partake".. me: "all jesus' followers".

TonusOH

"it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends."

I have to admit, that kind of wording makes my hair stand on end. It's a fancy way of admitting that they were wrong and that they have no idea when such a 'calling' will end. I think they have gotten too used to doing this. Everytime they need to face up to a problem with their predictions or explanations, they try to weasel out of it with deceptive wording.

141

THANK YOU Steven Unthank

by cedars in

ohiocowboy has just posted this information on the two other threads dealing with the sudden collapse of the unthank cases.. i don't know steven unthank, but i just want to thank him from the bottom of my heart for having the courage against overwhelming odds to try and bring the watch tower society to justice over their deplorable neglect when it comes to protecting children from abuse and molestation.. steven is a man of justice and integrity who i deeply admire.

his actions will never be forgotten, and i only hope he can find it within himself to continue his work in whatever avenue may become available in the future.. they have won this battle, but they can never win the war.. .

cedars.

TonusOH

I'll say one thing for this forum, quite a lot of people here sniffed him out early on. No wonder he was so cranky. It was like a room full of Geoffreys.

26

A simple rebuttal to the recent 'Last Minute Repentance' change.

by nicolaou in

for decades, critics have pointed out the unfairness of god slaughtering billions in a future armageddon who never even met a jw much less heard their life-saving message.

(remember the contortions around the collective responsibility of nations?

) also, why do babies and children have to die simply because their parents rejected the witnesses?

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: If you were not a product of the God of the bible, you would not even be able to admit that you have notions of good and evil as you have done above.

Your god does not have 'notions' of good or evil. In the universe as you envision it, there are no notions of good or evil. There is only what god claims is good or evil, and they are absolute... until such time as they are not.

I have asked you, numerous times, if you can or cannot determine what makes murder wrong. Or theft, or rape, or deception, or any of a number of actions that we deem immoral or wrong. You avoid answering this, because to do so invalidates the idea that only god can determine right or wrong. You do this, even though we both know you could describe why any of those actions are wrong. It's easy enough for a child to understand, which we witness all the time when parents explain to them why something is good or bad.

Pretty much everyone -including religious people- can do this. The idea that we cannot determine what is right or wrong without god fails the moment we admit that we can explain why certain actions are good or bad. We can use this very same method to explain why we don't get upset at rocks or chemicals, or why we don't put animals on trial.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: That is the basis of my belief that God is not a liar.

Sea Breeze: What is the basis of your unbelief?

For starters, the Bible explains that god lied to the first humans, threatening to kill them on the day they ate of the forbidden fruit. What's more, he also deceptively withheld the real reason he did not want them to eat it-- he did not want them to become like him, knowing right from wrong.

But that wasn't even the point I was making. As you quoted, I asked what basis you had for trusting that god would do as you expect him to. God doesn't just lie in the Bible, he massacres people and animals en masse because the world he created went bad almost immediately. And this angry reaction fixed nothing. This alone should ring alarm bells in your mind.

This god executed a man on the spot for the 'crime' of trying to steady the Ark of the Covenant when he thought it was going to fall off a cart. Another abrupt and extreme act of violence done in anger.

This god made a deal with the devil and allowed the devil to visit murder and catastrophe upon a man that even god found no fault with. When he finally decided to clear things up, one of the first things he did was to utterly humiliate Job for the 'crime' of wanting an explanation for the sheer hell he had been put through.

This god watched David bed another man's wife and arrange for the murder of that man. Seeing this travesty, god decided that David would be punished by... the deaths of his newborn infant and grown son. David, by the way, would be part of the lineage that would lead to the birth of the messiah.

There are plenty more examples that show this god to be angry, vengeful, jealous, petty, and gruesomely violent. I ask again, what basis do you have to trust that he will not eventually discard you? Or revise the terms of any offer he made to you? He is unpredictable, prone to irrational outbursts of anger, and utterly unstoppable.

I mean, what is his plan for those gifted with the reward of a heavenly afterlife? They get to spend eternity reminding god of how great he is, forever and ever. Aside from how unnecessary this is, and how awkward it must be to try and stroke the universe's biggest ego for the rest of your immortal life, this also subverts free will. I'm not sure you're reading the book correctly, if you're thinking god is on the level.

26

A simple rebuttal to the recent 'Last Minute Repentance' change.

by nicolaou in

for decades, critics have pointed out the unfairness of god slaughtering billions in a future armageddon who never even met a jw much less heard their life-saving message.

(remember the contortions around the collective responsibility of nations?

) also, why do babies and children have to die simply because their parents rejected the witnesses?

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: What I am wondering is how happenstance could possibly provide atheists with ANY notion of universal evil?

What is "universal evil" and where does it fit into the discussion of determining moral values?