Posts by TonusOH

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

Halcon: People like Tonus cannot fathom that God is both capable of giving punishment and giving reward.

No, no. I understand that just fine. The point that I am (continually) making is that we should judge god by his actions. By his attitude. By his words and his approach. By all of them.

I have no issue with recognizing the nature of a being of near-limitless power and strength who chooses to impose his rules on the universe and the people he created. But we have to also recognize what this says about him, and not only try to define him by what we want him to be. For example, trying to lay responsibility for outcomes at the feet of his creation-- an attitude that does not make sense in any context, but moreso in this one.

We can go with god's self-descriptions, which seems to me to be the best approach. Who is this god? He is jealous. He is vengeful. He is given to anger, and that anger leads to precipitate action. Indeed, the god that most Christians worship today is shaped by the descriptions given by others in the New Testament. And these do not align with a being who uses his power in the manner Yahweh does in the Old Testament.

We have to take all of it into account, and not try to dismiss the stuff that doesn't fit. Either it fits --and god is very different from what we desire for him to be-- or it doesn't --and this god cannot be real.

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

Halcon: Are we talking about man's definition of God again?

I am talking about what god's actions --as depicted in his holy book-- say about him, and am willing to use both god's and man's definitions as a basis of comparison. If these do not align with what we know about him, then we must understand why, otherwise it is difficult to believe that he is real.

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

Halcon: Yet the scriptures state Jesus healed a man's useless hand[...]

So we ignore the actions that contradict the definition and only consider the ones that don't? That gives us an incomplete understanding of who god is, doesn't it?

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

Halcon: On the contrary, God's very explicit self definition solves the problem of what exactly he is capable of doing minus the confusion caused by man.

But it does not resolve the contradiction of how he defines himself versus the way his actions define him. The confusion comes from trying to square that circle. God's actions are not the actions of someone who is loving, compassionate, merciful, and so on. In short, he defines himself out of possible existence.

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

God's own definition of himself does not seem to change the problem, because his actions don't align with someone who is compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, loving, faithful, and so on. Indeed, those descriptions are followed by the claim that he will unjustly burden children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren for the sins of their forebears. Sins which wouldn't exist in a world created by a loving and compassionate being.

The only change is that we can now affirm that scripture is at odds with itself, which reinforces the point I made.

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

Halcon: From beginning to end, God offers reward or punishment.

Had he wished, he could have only offered reward. Not only does he offer punishment, he offers punishment that will never end. He will keep you alive after death in order to make sure you keep being punished. He understood that this would happen, and he chose to create that universe anyway.

This would be consistent, if he was defined as a sadist. But he is defined as moral, merciful, good, kind, loving, and so on. He is defined as wishing for all to be saved and enjoy eternal bliss. This definition is in direct contrast with the actions he is purported to have taken and the universe he is believed to have designed. That does not make sense.

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

Halcon: I've yet to read a scripture where heaven is described as anything similar to suffering.

Sounds like scripture is at odds with the way god is described, then. This, also, is a problem with the Abrahamic god and the religions spawned from belief in it. A god whose nature is contradictory and for whom the supporting text is also inconsistent is unlikely to be real.

These inconsistencies and contradictions would be much more concerning if this god was real. Any possible explanation for those inconsistencies leads us down a dark road, and the understanding that we are this being's helpless playthings should terrify us. We try to paper over those concerns by insisting that he is nothing like this, which sounds a lot like what an abuse victim would say about her abuser.

I don't deny the possibility that a god (or gods) may exist, as this is something impossible to disprove. But I think many gods can be easily dismissed because they don't make sense.

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

Halcon: But what can anyone do about it?

Exactly. The Christian god is a being with the power to have created a universe where everyone enjoyed comfort, happiness, and bliss from beginning to end. But he instead chose to create one full of suffering, one where a great many people have suffered, and where many more will suffer for all eternity, with no respite. A universe where even he suffered-- an experience that was wholly unnecessary and only possible because he arranged it himself.

The Christian god, as described, is a being who likes suffering. Who revels in it. Think about the requirements for being allowed into heaven. How many of those involve suffering, in some form or another? Those who do not suffer enough in life will suffer endlessly in the afterlife. I have to wonder if heaven is anything like what we imagine it to be. What would heaven be, for a being who is so utterly enthralled by suffering?

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

Halcon: Apparently we must choose a side.

What is gained by allowing us to choose? Why would he create a universe where there are two choices, when one of those choices leads to endless suffering?

In a universe where there is no choice, everyone is happy forever. In the universe that he designed and created, millons --if not billions-- of souls will suffer forever. In the universe that he designed and created, there will always be suffering. Always. This is the universe that he chose to create.

135

Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam in

we get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?

that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.

TonusOH

I think the problem is that god is revealed by his words and actions. If we assume that these descriptions of him are true, we are still left with a universe where more people will suffer eternally than will enjoy heaven, even though this god expressed his desire for all to be saved.

He stated he wanted only good outcomes, but a very large number of people will suffer endlessly. What does this tell us about him? Even if we accept every premise you propose, we are left with a universe where suffering is far more common than happiness. What does this tell us about the being who created the universe and everything in it?