Posts by jp1692

116

What is behind your choice of forum user name?

by stuckinarut2 in

jw
friends

just curious how we all think.. what prompted or influenced your choice of username for this forum?.

there are some really amazing names, and it would be great to hear the stories behind them.... mine was nothing fancy.

i just felt "stuck in a rut too" along with so many others.

jp1692

John Proctor is the main character in Arthur Miller's play "The Crucible," a partially fictionalized story of the Salem witch trials that took place in the Massachusetts Bay Colony during 1692/93.

In both the play and in reality, Proctor was falsely accused and convicted of witchcraft. The real John Proctor was hanged in August, 1692.

In my life, I was "hanged" (disfellowshipped as a JW) because I refused to say I believed in something which I did not. And so I thought the jp1692 appellation was appropriate.

My avatar is Daniel Day-Lewis from the 1996 movie version.

Quote: "Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet of them you have hanged! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; leave me my name!"

22

Who holds the Burden Of Proof?

by stuckinarut2 in

when we as former witnesses wake up and choose to leave the society, it is mainly because we value truth and honesty.. the society tries to make out that we are in the wrong.

that we have "left the truth".. but, who really holds the burden of proof?

do we (who leave) need to prove that the society is not the "truth", or does the society need to prove that it is the "truth".. thoughts?.

jp1692

The only person we are obliged to prove anything to is ourself.

That being said, when it comes to discussions such at this I've always been fond of invoking the aphorism popularized by Carl Sagan: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

22

Witnessing to two JW elders

by Roger Kirkpatrick in

i was approached by two jehovah’s witness elders who handed me a pamphlet advertising the jw .org website.

each man carried a bible and an apple ipad.

they told me that they enjoyed visiting with people about the bible, and asked if i was a bible reader.

jp1692

Skin: they will still choose WT words over the bible to rule their life.

That's right, because with cults it's not really about doctrine. That's just window dressing.

With a cult it's all about one thing and one thing only: control.

24

Do WT Publications Make Us Feel Unworthy, Unlovable and Helpless?

by jp1692 in

it is my contention that the wtbts, (as do all high-control, authoritarian cults), deliberately cultivates dysfunctional beliefs among its members.

in particular, the most destructive of these beliefs are those that undermine one's feelings of self-worth.

for a research project i am doing, i am looking for direct quotes from wt publications that seem to be specifically designed to manipulate the readers into feeling: unworthy, unlovable, inadequate and/or helpless.

jp1692

Hi Stuck! I've heard that "half-baked" illustration several too-many times! (Do you see what I did there?)

I think you'd have to be "dense" to fall for it.

32

Letter to my JW elder brother

by Roger Kirkpatrick in

i sent the following letter to my older brother, a jw elder in grand prairie, texas, who actively shuns me since i left the religion for conscientious reasons two years ago.. may 11, 2017. dear ronnie,.

in the opening scenes of the movie gone with the wind, a field worker hollers out, “”quttin’ time!” big sam protests, saying, “i’s da fo’man on tara.

i sez when it’s quittin’ time.

jp1692

Roger,

That is an extremely well reasoned argument. I completely agree with the thoughts and sentiments expressed above with the possible exception of that by Stuckinarut when he wrote: "No doubt many here will be inspired by the content."

If by "be inspired" he meant to courageously take a stand for personal integrity, then: yes, I agree. Wholeheartedly. However, if anyone reading your letter thinks that by writing a similar letter to someone they love that they might "wake that person up" and get them to stop shunning and start loving, then I want to strongly disabuse anyone so inclined of that much mistaken notion.

Towards the end you wrote to your brother, "Since I voluntarily disassociated and was never disfellowshiped for wrongdoing, I could renounce my disassociation tomorrow and resume being a JW again with no restrictions whatsoever."

I must point out that your statement above is not true. If you "returned" to a congregation of JWs after disassociating yourself there most certainly would be "restrictions." That fact that you think there might not be shows that you really do not understand how cults work. It's not about doctrines at all; it is only about one thing: control.

They have to have it. Your show of independence proves you to be a dangerous person. Should you return (and I suspect that you actually have zero desire or intention of ever doing that), you would be subject to all of the typical sanctions and censure of any "prodigal" for the express purpose of breaking any independent spirit you have, making sure you know exactly who is in control and to make a show for any observers just in case any of them might have any ideas of questioning or expressing an opinion.

I'm sorry about the loss of your brother. You seem like a good and thoughtful man of personal integrity. I hope your brother wakes up one day before it's too late and you can enjoy a real relationship sans the cult.

Letter like yours feel good to write. Sometimes they have the desired effect, but not very often. Usually they just cause the intended recipient to double-down on their cult-mindset and shun even harder.

I wish you all the best in your life after the cult, a life of exploration in which you discover who we really are.

JP

24

Do WT Publications Make Us Feel Unworthy, Unlovable and Helpless?

by jp1692 in

it is my contention that the wtbts, (as do all high-control, authoritarian cults), deliberately cultivates dysfunctional beliefs among its members.

in particular, the most destructive of these beliefs are those that undermine one's feelings of self-worth.

for a research project i am doing, i am looking for direct quotes from wt publications that seem to be specifically designed to manipulate the readers into feeling: unworthy, unlovable, inadequate and/or helpless.

jp1692

@Wake Me Up: I agree that the whole, "you're a slave/sinner" thing is a damaging notion. The reason I specifically asked for quotes from WT literature is that many Christian denominations have become mainstream and no longer harp on those ideas from the bible. I'm well acquainted with what a twisted, sick document the bible is. But my current research is not focused on Christianity per se or the bible in particular; it is on cults.

Cults have specific ways of using whatever is their ideology to control and manipulate people. Again, this is why I've asked for specific quotes from WT literature.

I have not seen the "Return to Jehovah" booklet, but have read excerpts from it posted here when it was released. From what I recall it seemed more designed to placate JWs that do NOT leave and to keep them in line more than in claimed effort at "bringing lost sheep back to the fold."

I was an elder for two decades in several congregations and in my experience the rhetoric about trying to "save lost sheep" (inactive, disfellowshipped and/or disassociated ones) is all window dressing. Several times I asked other elders in other congregations about their efforts to do this. (You may or may not know the WTBTS directs elders to make a concerted effort to contact DF'd people once per year). It was obvious from all of the elders I talked to that no congregation (including my own) really took this admonition very seriously.

@Muddy Waters, sheesh, just reading the word "behooves" makes me nauseous!

@dubstepped: I'm not sure I can bring myself to search for specific quotes

I feel your pain!

@tor1500, I have noticed exactly what you observed. It’s really hard to tease out a scientific answer to the question of whether cults attract people with mental illnesses or cause them. The intuitive answer is, as you commented, both. And it is almost certainly correct. But it is a difficult thing to prove scientifically as I am attempting.

I also agree that the WTBTS, like all cults, no their target audience and prey on them with a conscious and deliberate methodology.

30

Why is the approval of family so important?

by jwfacts in

one of the reasons people remain pimo is fear of losing family.

those that are disfellowshipped and shunned regularly comment about how devastated that they have lost the approval of their parents.. when i respond to emails from people saying how difficult it is being estranged or looked down on by their parents, i would like to say that over time they will come to terms with it, except i not sure that people ever do.

i cannot shake that feeling either.

jp1692

WakeMe, those are great questions.

Rather than hijacking this thread by going off on a tangent, I'll answer you in a PM.

JP

22

Jehovah's Witnesses denial of what they are supposed to believe from Watchtower

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

one of the most frustrating things.

when you confront jw's about what they believe they will often deny it.

such as "if your child is disfellowshipped then you can't have contact with them ever again".

jp1692

Jambon: Why can't they just own what they are?

Because that would require admitting that they are in a cult.

I bet you knew that!

30

Why is the approval of family so important?

by jwfacts in

one of the reasons people remain pimo is fear of losing family.

those that are disfellowshipped and shunned regularly comment about how devastated that they have lost the approval of their parents.. when i respond to emails from people saying how difficult it is being estranged or looked down on by their parents, i would like to say that over time they will come to terms with it, except i not sure that people ever do.

i cannot shake that feeling either.

jp1692

Wake Me Up: What does PIMO stand for?

PIMO = Physically In, Mentally Out.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this refers to people that no longer believe that JWs "have the truth," but continue to attend meetings and pretend to believe for various reasons--usually to avoid being shunned by their family members.

As jwfacts wrote: "One of the reasons people remain PIMO is fear of losing family." I would contend that that is the main reason, if not the only one.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke, Irish political philosopher (1729 - 1797)

30

Why is the approval of family so important?

by jwfacts in

one of the reasons people remain pimo is fear of losing family.

those that are disfellowshipped and shunned regularly comment about how devastated that they have lost the approval of their parents.. when i respond to emails from people saying how difficult it is being estranged or looked down on by their parents, i would like to say that over time they will come to terms with it, except i not sure that people ever do.

i cannot shake that feeling either.

jp1692

The short answer is that we are made that way. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution have left their imprint on us: we are social animals. We need to belong.

Belonging has been a survival instinct for us and our pre-human ancestors. Ostracism, or even the threat of it, has always been one of the most powerful tools of control of social groups. This dates back to our tribal past.

It is an interesting sociological question to ask: Why do some people leave a group when the personal emotional cost is so high? This is something I've been pondering and researching for a couple of years now. The answers I've found are not so clear-cut and are largely anecdotal. One this is clear, there is only a weak correlation between intelligence and cult involvement. There are highly intelligent people that join cults and remain in them their whole lives. Conversely, there are individuals of less than average intelligence that seem to somehow be resistant cult propaganda. Interestingly, some studies show that creative people are actually more likely to fall for cult beliefs!

What does seem to make the difference is that people that leave high-demand, authoritarian environments (that's academicese for "cults") tend to be more personally self-aware of their own thoughts and motivations and have a higher commitment to self than the group. Additionally, they possess sufficient personal integrity and courage to live separately in spite of the emotionally painful consequences associated with leaving.

I also suspect that many that leave a cult naively think that somehow their ties to their family is so strong that they will be the exception and their loved ones will not shun them when they leave. Agains, it's anecdotal evidence, but my personal experience has been confirmed by reading the stories of literally hundreds of JWs that have left the religion.

So many people think that if they "just fade" their still-in families will continue to treat them as before. Although it does work out positively for some few, the majority seem surprised to find that they are cut-off completely simply because they no longer "go to meetings."

To add another perspective to this thread, it's not just painful when parents shun their children, it is also very difficult when children shun their parents.