jp1692

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Posts by jp1692

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  6

  What type of study subject is this?

  by purrpurr in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm finding i'm getting more and more interested in debunking the bible/ christian beliefs.

  looking into the evolution and history of how religion develope.

  i'd like to study this further but i don't know what subject it would be classified as?.

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  jp1692

  Try In Gods We Trust by Scott Atran.

  It’s an ambitious undertaking and a fairly challenging read, but it’s the most thorough scholarly and interdisciplinary examination of the question of which I am aware.
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  64

  Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?

  by UnshackleTheChains in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i happened to come across a time article in 2008. it was basically talking about the high turnover in american faiths.

  it mentioned the jdubs and highlighted the following point.. an even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny jehovah's witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds.

  that means that two-thirds of the people who told pew they were raised jehovah's witnesses no longer are — yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.

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  jp1692

  Ruby: That's a sweeping condemnation

  Yes it is and I'm okay with that.

  These conclusions are ones that I have come to after a combination of:

  • 30-plus years in a cult
  • Eight years in recovery
  • Two years of therapy
  • Three years of research concerning cult recover, and
  • Countless conversations with other former cult members and current PIMO members, (and not just JWs).

  Ruby: I would argue that moral courage and integrity can take many equally valid forms

  Okay. Argue away.

  Ruby: An individual can be courageous even if they decide to live what you term bullshit.

  A key distinction which you seemed to have missed is not that I think it's bullshit, but that the individual thinks it's bullshit and still remains captive to the cult, pretending to believe things which they don't because they are afraid. How is that courageous? Where is the moral integrity in living a lie?

  Don't get me wrong. The fears are real. I know, I did it myself for six or seven years. But ultimately those fears are soul-crushing if we let them be.

  I understand as well as anyone here the consequences of leaving a cult, but it's illogical and contradictory to say someone is "courageous," if they remain in one because they are afraid.

  Courage is doing the right thing in spite of being afraid, not holding back because of fear and suffering in silence.
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  64

  Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?

  by UnshackleTheChains in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i happened to come across a time article in 2008. it was basically talking about the high turnover in american faiths.

  it mentioned the jdubs and highlighted the following point.. an even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny jehovah's witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds.

  that means that two-thirds of the people who told pew they were raised jehovah's witnesses no longer are — yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.

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  jp1692

  Ruby, as I mentioned to Shepherdless previously:

  "I'm short on time at the moment, but I wanted to acknowledge your question. I probably won't have time for a decent response for a couple of days."

  You see, I have a job and a life. I only post on here when I see topics of interest or if it fits my research and/or amuses me.

  So it's kind of annoying for you to suggest that my lack of response to Shepherdless' question means I don't have sources to back up my assertion, particularly since s(he) hasn't responded to my comments.

  I'll repeat them for you because I'd like your response. It would certainly help me frame an answer.

  Are you familiar with the concepts of:

  • Cognitive Dissonance?
    
  • Confirmation Bias?
  • Asch Conformity Experiment?
  • The work of Leon Festinger?

  In the meantime, here is a link to the list of works which I have cited and/or consulted over the last few years as part of my research into the questions of: Who joins a cult? Who leaves? Who stays?

  • Cult Recovery Research - References

  FYI: This research began as a personal project, but as I progressed, I was able to advance it to a more academic level. Recently I was able to present my findings on the topic at an international conference dealing specifically with the topic of recovery for current and former cult members. (For reasons that are hopefully obvious, I am leaving out certain details.)

  Feel free to review this list of references and resources. It's quite extensive and thorough. I'm sure there's more than enough to keep you busy for a while.

  While you're wading through that, Ruby, I'd ask you to reflect on your general overall tone and approach to virtually all of our interactions on this board: you are nearly always adversarial and snarky.

  It's not cool.

  jp
• 
  25

  How Would You Console A Witness Who Has Lost A Loved One?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  let’s say that you haven’t been around a kingdom hall in years and everyone knows you are not a “true believer “ anymore.

  yet a tragedy strikes and you want to give a real heartfelt expression of your feelings— what would you say?

  would you acknowledge the resurrection hope that the witnesses entertain or say something very different?.

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  jp1692

  I would take a page from the playbook of non-cult members (aka: normal people) and say, "I'm sorry for your loss!"

  If we were ever close, I would offer to be available to talk.
  
• 
  64

  Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?

  by UnshackleTheChains in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i happened to come across a time article in 2008. it was basically talking about the high turnover in american faiths.

  it mentioned the jdubs and highlighted the following point.. an even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny jehovah's witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds.

  that means that two-thirds of the people who told pew they were raised jehovah's witnesses no longer are — yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.

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  jp1692

  Ruby, yes.

  Although if someone knows it’s bullshit and still remains in the religion, they might not be lacking in self-awareness, but they most certainly are deficient in moral integrity and courage.
• 
  64

  Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?

  by UnshackleTheChains in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i happened to come across a time article in 2008. it was basically talking about the high turnover in american faiths.

  it mentioned the jdubs and highlighted the following point.. an even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny jehovah's witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds.

  that means that two-thirds of the people who told pew they were raised jehovah's witnesses no longer are — yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.

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  jp1692

  Shepherless: Could you expand on what you mean by point 1? Also, if you have any easy links to publicly available relevant scientific data, I for one would be interested to see it.

  Sure, I'm short on time at the moment, but I wanted to acknowledge your question. I probably won't have time for a decent response for a couple of days.

  In the interim, I've a couple of questions for you so I know what to share. Are you familiar with the concepts of:

  • Cognitive Dissonance?
  • Confirmation Bias?
  • Asch Conformity Experiment?
  • The work of Leon Festinger?
    

  Also, what do you mean by "street-wise"?

  Thanks,

  jp
  
• 
  64

  Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?

  by UnshackleTheChains in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i happened to come across a time article in 2008. it was basically talking about the high turnover in american faiths.

  it mentioned the jdubs and highlighted the following point.. an even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny jehovah's witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds.

  that means that two-thirds of the people who told pew they were raised jehovah's witnesses no longer are — yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.

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  jp1692

  Thank you LongHairGal.

  The implication of my post is that people that stay in this religion are:

  1. Lacking in moral integrity,
  2. Have less than even a moderate amount of courage,
  3. and are extremely low in self-awareness.

  I have abundant scientific data to back this up. So if anyone doubts this, bring it on. Show me your evidence to refute my claims.

  BTW, again note that intelligence is NOT a reliable predictor or who will or will not join a cult.
• 
  64

  Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?

  by UnshackleTheChains in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i happened to come across a time article in 2008. it was basically talking about the high turnover in american faiths.

  it mentioned the jdubs and highlighted the following point.. an even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny jehovah's witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds.

  that means that two-thirds of the people who told pew they were raised jehovah's witnesses no longer are — yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.

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  jp1692

  Q: Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?

  A: Because it's a bullshit religion. Eventually, anyone with any moral integrity, even a moderate amount of courage, self-awareness and modest intelligence (which is apparently the least important of the qualities I've listed) wakes up and says, "Fuck this, I'm outta here!"

  
  
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  9

  When someone you love has gone.

  by compound complex in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  since i don't have you,i conjure up an image thatis both real and ideal.. what i do recall is etched in sharp relief, but deeply, in dark caverns of my mind.. the heart is a better well of reminiscence as it draws upan intangible but true past.. a newfound, tranquil corner inme reassures that love, thoughgone missing, is never lost..

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  jp1692

  CC, that is a very powerfully poem and timely for me as I just learned this morning that one of my dear aunts died last night.

  Thank you for sharing it.

  Question: Is that a typo in the first line of the third stanza? Did you mean “The heart is a bitter well ...”?
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  15

  A Visit from the JWs, knocking at our door...!

  by Muddy Waters in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  ha, another visit from the jws.... thankfully they are few and far between (seem to roll around whenever the co visits or is about to visit...)an elder and his wife, presenting the magazines and inviting us to the talks, which are "so encouraging".

  he had the saddest, most hang-dog expression, as he bemoaned these last days, so critical to deal with, and how the world was getting so terrible, things are so bad, blah blah blah, and every time i looked at her, she smiled encouragingly at me with that bright-eyed, put-on "sincere" smile.

  i thanked them for coming, and said, "i appreciate you thinking about us" (after they said how the "missed us" at the meetings, ugh) -- "but we know where the kingdom hall is if we decide to go back.

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  jp1692

  They said how the "missed us"

  Cool. I’m available for dinner this Friday night or we could go out for breakfast Saturday morning ...