It is important to keep in mind that doctrines are actually irrelevent for a cult. Although they all have some unique, distinct ideology that is allegedly their rallying point or cause, the point of a cult is to exercise control over their members. This is why cults can and do change specific teachings from time to time and suffer little net loss of members.
Posts by jp1692
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22Who holds the Burden Of Proof?
by stuckinarut2 inwhen we as former witnesses wake up and choose to leave the society, it is mainly because we value truth and honesty.. the society tries to make out that we are in the wrong.
that we have "left the truth".. but, who really holds the burden of proof?
do we (who leave) need to prove that the society is not the "truth", or does the society need to prove that it is the "truth".. thoughts?.
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116
What is behind your choice of forum user name?
by stuckinarut2 injust curious how we all think.. what prompted or influenced your choice of username for this forum?.
there are some really amazing names, and it would be great to hear the stories behind them.... mine was nothing fancy.
i just felt "stuck in a rut too" along with so many others.
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jp1692
John Proctor is the main character in Arthur Miller's play "The Crucible," a partially fictionalized story of the Salem witch trials that took place in the Massachusetts Bay Colony during 1692/93.
In both the play and in reality, Proctor was falsely accused and convicted of witchcraft. The real John Proctor was hanged in August, 1692.
In my life, I was "hanged" (disfellowshipped as a JW) because I refused to say I believed in something which I did not. And so I thought the jp1692 appellation was appropriate.
My avatar is Daniel Day-Lewis from the 1996 movie version.
Quote: "Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet of them you have hanged! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; leave me my name!"
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22
Who holds the Burden Of Proof?
by stuckinarut2 inwhen we as former witnesses wake up and choose to leave the society, it is mainly because we value truth and honesty.. the society tries to make out that we are in the wrong.
that we have "left the truth".. but, who really holds the burden of proof?
do we (who leave) need to prove that the society is not the "truth", or does the society need to prove that it is the "truth".. thoughts?.
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jp1692
The only person we are obliged to prove anything to is ourself.
That being said, when it comes to discussions such at this I've always been fond of invoking the aphorism popularized by Carl Sagan: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
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22
Witnessing to two JW elders
by Roger Kirkpatrick ini was approached by two jehovah’s witness elders who handed me a pamphlet advertising the jw .org website.
each man carried a bible and an apple ipad.
they told me that they enjoyed visiting with people about the bible, and asked if i was a bible reader.
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jp1692
Skin: they will still choose WT words over the bible to rule their life.
That's right, because with cults it's not really about doctrine. That's just window dressing.
With a cult it's all about one thing and one thing only: control.
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Do WT Publications Make Us Feel Unworthy, Unlovable and Helpless?
by jp1692 init is my contention that the wtbts, (as do all high-control, authoritarian cults), deliberately cultivates dysfunctional beliefs among its members.
in particular, the most destructive of these beliefs are those that undermine one's feelings of self-worth.
for a research project i am doing, i am looking for direct quotes from wt publications that seem to be specifically designed to manipulate the readers into feeling: unworthy, unlovable, inadequate and/or helpless.
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jp1692
Hi Stuck! I've heard that "half-baked" illustration several too-many times! (Do you see what I did there?)
I think you'd have to be "dense" to fall for it.
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Letter to my JW elder brother
by Roger Kirkpatrick ini sent the following letter to my older brother, a jw elder in grand prairie, texas, who actively shuns me since i left the religion for conscientious reasons two years ago.. may 11, 2017. dear ronnie,.
in the opening scenes of the movie gone with the wind, a field worker hollers out, “”quttin’ time!” big sam protests, saying, “i’s da fo’man on tara.
i sez when it’s quittin’ time.
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jp1692
Roger,
That is an extremely well reasoned argument. I completely agree with the thoughts and sentiments expressed above with the possible exception of that by Stuckinarut when he wrote: "No doubt many here will be inspired by the content."
If by "be inspired" he meant to courageously take a stand for personal integrity, then: yes, I agree. Wholeheartedly. However, if anyone reading your letter thinks that by writing a similar letter to someone they love that they might "wake that person up" and get them to stop shunning and start loving, then I want to strongly disabuse anyone so inclined of that much mistaken notion.
Towards the end you wrote to your brother, "Since I voluntarily disassociated and was never disfellowshiped for wrongdoing, I could renounce my disassociation tomorrow and resume being a JW again with no restrictions whatsoever."
I must point out that your statement above is not true. If you "returned" to a congregation of JWs after disassociating yourself there most certainly would be "restrictions." That fact that you think there might not be shows that you really do not understand how cults work. It's not about doctrines at all; it is only about one thing: control.
They have to have it. Your show of independence proves you to be a dangerous person. Should you return (and I suspect that you actually have zero desire or intention of ever doing that), you would be subject to all of the typical sanctions and censure of any "prodigal" for the express purpose of breaking any independent spirit you have, making sure you know exactly who is in control and to make a show for any observers just in case any of them might have any ideas of questioning or expressing an opinion.
I'm sorry about the loss of your brother. You seem like a good and thoughtful man of personal integrity. I hope your brother wakes up one day before it's too late and you can enjoy a real relationship sans the cult.
Letter like yours feel good to write. Sometimes they have the desired effect, but not very often. Usually they just cause the intended recipient to double-down on their cult-mindset and shun even harder.
I wish you all the best in your life after the cult, a life of exploration in which you discover who we really are.
JP
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24
Do WT Publications Make Us Feel Unworthy, Unlovable and Helpless?
by jp1692 init is my contention that the wtbts, (as do all high-control, authoritarian cults), deliberately cultivates dysfunctional beliefs among its members.
in particular, the most destructive of these beliefs are those that undermine one's feelings of self-worth.
for a research project i am doing, i am looking for direct quotes from wt publications that seem to be specifically designed to manipulate the readers into feeling: unworthy, unlovable, inadequate and/or helpless.
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jp1692
@Wake Me Up: I agree that the whole, "you're a slave/sinner" thing is a damaging notion. The reason I specifically asked for quotes from WT literature is that many Christian denominations have become mainstream and no longer harp on those ideas from the bible. I'm well acquainted with what a twisted, sick document the bible is. But my current research is not focused on Christianity per se or the bible in particular; it is on cults.
Cults have specific ways of using whatever is their ideology to control and manipulate people. Again, this is why I've asked for specific quotes from WT literature.
I have not seen the "Return to Jehovah" booklet, but have read excerpts from it posted here when it was released. From what I recall it seemed more designed to placate JWs that do NOT leave and to keep them in line more than in claimed effort at "bringing lost sheep back to the fold."
I was an elder for two decades in several congregations and in my experience the rhetoric about trying to "save lost sheep" (inactive, disfellowshipped and/or disassociated ones) is all window dressing. Several times I asked other elders in other congregations about their efforts to do this. (You may or may not know the WTBTS directs elders to make a concerted effort to contact DF'd people once per year). It was obvious from all of the elders I talked to that no congregation (including my own) really took this admonition very seriously.
@Muddy Waters, sheesh, just reading the word "behooves" makes me nauseous!
@dubstepped: I'm not sure I can bring myself to search for specific quotes
I feel your pain!
@tor1500, I have noticed exactly what you observed. It’s really hard to tease out a scientific answer to the question of whether cults attract people with mental illnesses or cause them. The intuitive answer is, as you commented, both. And it is almost certainly correct. But it is a difficult thing to prove scientifically as I am attempting.
I also agree that the WTBTS, like all cults, no their target audience and prey on them with a conscious and deliberate methodology. -
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Why is the approval of family so important?
by jwfacts inone of the reasons people remain pimo is fear of losing family.
those that are disfellowshipped and shunned regularly comment about how devastated that they have lost the approval of their parents.. when i respond to emails from people saying how difficult it is being estranged or looked down on by their parents, i would like to say that over time they will come to terms with it, except i not sure that people ever do.
i cannot shake that feeling either.
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jp1692
WakeMe, those are great questions.
Rather than hijacking this thread by going off on a tangent, I'll answer you in a PM.
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Jehovah's Witnesses denial of what they are supposed to believe from Watchtower
by jambon1 inone of the most frustrating things.
when you confront jw's about what they believe they will often deny it.
such as "if your child is disfellowshipped then you can't have contact with them ever again".
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jp1692
Jambon: Why can't they just own what they are?
Because that would require admitting that they are in a cult.
I bet you knew that!
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Why is the approval of family so important?
by jwfacts inone of the reasons people remain pimo is fear of losing family.
those that are disfellowshipped and shunned regularly comment about how devastated that they have lost the approval of their parents.. when i respond to emails from people saying how difficult it is being estranged or looked down on by their parents, i would like to say that over time they will come to terms with it, except i not sure that people ever do.
i cannot shake that feeling either.
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jp1692
Wake Me Up: What does PIMO stand for?
PIMO = Physically In, Mentally Out.
At the risk of stating the obvious, this refers to people that no longer believe that JWs "have the truth," but continue to attend meetings and pretend to believe for various reasons--usually to avoid being shunned by their family members.
As jwfacts wrote: "One of the reasons people remain PIMO is fear of losing family." I would contend that that is the main reason, if not the only one.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke, Irish political philosopher (1729 - 1797)