Spoletta, I took that course once.
Unfortunately I failed it and had to ... (wait for it) ... repeat it, over and over again!
Posts by jp1692
-
-
-
-
149
why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
-
-
jp1692
Ruby: i don't have Furuli's paper in front of me so I cannot comment on your analysis.
Sure you can. Read the direct quotes I posted, my analysis and then comment. If you want to do more, then try and track down a copy of the paper and read it (see my post above).
Ruby:I would like to see the data he mentions too as this may be data he rejects as flawed
The data you reposted immediately above are Furuli's "research" findings. It is what HE reported. He didn't like it though because it doesn't agree with is worldview. It's called cognitive dissonance.
Ruby: it is interesting that Furuli's research chimes with evidence I shared
That's not surprising to me. It's called confirmation bias.
-
149
why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
-
-
jp1692
Correction to my previous post:
I wrote that the early draft of Furuli's paper, “The Mental Health of Jehovah’s Witnesses” was submitted for the 2015 CENSUR conference in Belgium.
The copy I have of his paper bears the copyright notice “© Rolf J. Furuli 2015,” but the conference was actually in 2016, April 21-22.
Also, CENSUR was apparently only one of the partners/sponsors, the main one being The European Observatory of Religion and Secularism.
Here is a link to a flyer showing the conference schedule of presentations and speakers:
As far as I can determine, a final draft of Furuli’s paper was never published formally, although it may be available as part of the Subsidia III collection of conference papers.
If someone has information to the contrary I would appreciate knowing about it.
-
-
-
jp1692
Masters in Self-deception
-
5
Our new yearly "regional convention"
by stuckinarut2 inso unstuck and myself have decided to attend a different kind of yearly convention!.
it should be fun!.
just think, anything that helps us using our "powers of reason" (romans 12:1) is approved by the bible isn't it??
-
-
jp1692
I wanna go!
-
149
why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
-
-
jp1692
Earnest: There was a 2015 study of the mental health of Jehovah's Witnesses ...
I am very familiar with that "study" by Rolf Furuli. Unfortunately, although it is interesting for its unique perspective, it is nevertheless extremely flawed and very biased. What he calls a "study" is merely a survey and not a rigorous one by academic or scientific standards.
His argument is essentially: "Bergman has questionable credentials and ethics; therefore, JWs do not have a problem with mental illness. I also know because I asked a bunch of my friends if there were any crazy JWs in their congregations and they said, 'No, not many!'"
I'm not joking. He really did this.
An example of this can be seen by considering Furuli's "methodology." He himself explains:
As the basis for my 2015 study, I sent a questionaire to elders in 35 Norwegian congregations. In order to ascertain that the numbers from the Norwegian congregations were representative of the worldwide population of JW, I sent the same questionaire to elders in 24 congregations in USA and in 15 congregations in 12 other countries. The elders were asked to carefully consider each member of the congregation with the following questions in mind: How many active and inactive members have, or have had, a mental illness (schizophrenia, psychosis, bipolar disorder etc.), and how many active or inactive members have, or have had, a severe depression? (2015, p. 8)*
Seriously!?! Furuli asked congregation "Elders" to diagnose mental illnesses and then to report back to him. THAT is the basis for his conclusion that JWs have a lower incidence of mental health issues than the general population. To say this is flawed research methodology is a gross understatement.
Obviously, elders are not trained or qualified in any way to make such assessments. This is ridiculous!
Also, his own data sometimes indicates that mental health issues are higher among JWs than among the general population. For example, he writes:
If we use this number, the rate of admission to mental hospitals is 2.60 per 1000 among the Witnesses compared with 2.54 in the normal population; the rate of schizophrenia is 1.15 among the Witnesses and 0.61 in the normal population; the rate of paranoid schizophrenia is 0.88 among the Witnesses and 0.38 in the normal population (2015, p. 5).
So even after Furuli’s tweaks with the numbers, he admits the rate of mental illness of JWs in Western Australia is more than that in the normal population. Nevertheless, Furuli himself admits that "final conclusions are difficult to draw" (2015, p. 5).
Another significant detail to consider in Furuli's analysis is that he included "only those who have been treated by a psychiatrist or at a mental hospital are counted" (2015, p. 11). There are two serious problems with this:
- There is no reason to exclude people that suffer from mental health issues and do not seek professional help. Many people do not, especially JWs since this religion actively discourages it.
- Again, this information was reported to him by congregation elders, so it would exclude anyone that may have been treated by a mental health professional or admitted to a "mental hospital" but the elders did not know about it. (If you think the elders know everything, you're wrong). This fact alone likely changes the actual numbers drastically.
These two factors alone demonstrate the serious methodological flaws of Furuli's "study." A dispassionate reading suggests that the actual number of active and former JWs suffering from mental health issues is probably quite high. Indeed, for a religion that claims to be "the happiest people on Earth," even one person with mental health issues is a problem for their delusional, unrealistic and unhealthy ideology.
Furuli's discussion of the issue of suicide is similarly flawed. Demonstrating his religious bias, Furuli writes: "To commit suicide is an extreme act that violates the basic principles of God, and persons who do that either are mentally ill or they are in a situation of the deepest despair where they see no solution for their problems" (2015, p. 13).
Clearly, people that are suicidal have mental health issues. But it is equally obvious that if you are a member of a religion that spouts messages like the above, you are not likely to be open about your mental health issues with congregation elders. Unfortunately, such ideological shaming usually has the opposite effect, causing people to hide their concerns, preventing many from getting the help they need. This is a serious, endemic problem for people in this religion.
There are so many other logical and factual errors in his paper it's laughable. The last third turned into a JW propaganda puff-piece totally unbecoming for an academic paper.
I could write more detailing reasons whey Furuli's "research" should not be given much attention, but the above makes the point. Again, really lame.
---------------------
* Note: My citations are from an early draft of Furuli's research submitted for the 2015 CENSUR conference in Belgium. It is my understanding that this draft was rejected for publication because of serious methodological problems. The link Earnest provided is only to the abstract of an ostensibly revised version. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of that. -
149
why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
-
-
jp1692
Ruby, start a new thread then.
This one is titled:
why jw's commit suicide?
-
149
why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
-
-
jp1692
Ruby, you're hopeless.
Once again you provide a link to a completely irrelevant article.
The keyword "jehovah" does not appear once in the linked article you posted so it is completely useless in addressing the question as to whether or not Jehovah's Witnesses suicide rates are higher or lower than the general population.
Your inability to focus on the OP topic and to directly answer questions is troublesome. That fact that you continually try to misdirect and obfuscate is beyond annoying.
I have no idea what your payoff is, but you are beginning to seem more and more like a troll.
Again, you wrote: "the suicide rate isn't higher among JWs than general populations. in fact it is lower."
You made the assertion. You need to provide evidence to support it. You have not done that.
Research "regarding religion generally" that is not about Jehovah's Witnesses specifically does not support your assertion. In case you haven't figured it out: JWs is not a typical religion; it is a high-control, high-demand authoritarian environment which subjects its members to undue influence using coercive methods of mental manipulation. This often results in severe mental distresses--particularly among those that leave as a result--that can lead to severe mental illnesses such as: depression, anxiety, PTSD, schizoaffective disorders and a whole host of other disorders. This cannot be said of "religions generally" and so it is not possible to extrapolate results of such a study and try to force fit it onto current and ex-JWs.
If you cannot, or will not, provide research-based evidence from a reliable source which supports your assertion that JWs have a lower suicide rate than the general population, then you should retract that statement and back off.
-
149
why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
-
-
jp1692
Ruby, you're giving away your lack of scientific training and education.
I don't need to prove anything. YOU made the assertion, YOU need to provide the evidence. That is how science works.
I realize that this is not an academic research forum, but you are needlessly derailing with your baseless assertions what is an important discussion. Then, when you are called on it, you play these silly little immature games.
For the record, I have researched this particular issue for many years and, as Steve2 wrote previously, there is precious solid research to support a conclusive statement one way or the other about the actual rate of suicides among active or ex-JWs in comparison to the general population of any particular geographic region, let alone globally. This is unfortunate because it would be really useful to know. A rigorously researched analysis in a longitudinal study done with a statistically relevant sampling of populations from representative samples globally would be just the ticket. To date no one seems to have done that. If you know otherwise, then share. If you don't, then please be quiet about things you do not know about.
In the meantime, it is perfectly fine, and actually quite informative, for individuals to share their unique experiences, observations, perceptions and impressions on the issue. This kind of anecdotal evidence is important, but it does not a scientifically valid conclusion make.
You seriously err when you say, "In fact it is lower."
You don't know that it is a "fact," so stop saying it is.
-
149
why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
-
-
jp1692
Ruby: the suicide rate isn't higher among JWs than general populations. in fact it is lower.
Ruby, please refrain from posting unfounded assertions.
I have repeatedly asked you to provide research-based evidence to support this assertion and you have failed to do so.
It is really unhelpful for you to repeat claims for which you cannot provide proof. It just muddies the waters needlessly.
If you have evidence, share it. If you do not, stop. Seriously: stop!