Posts by Snowball

11

1914? Wrong! See why.

by thinker in

went to an interesting site the other day concerning 1914 and the wtbts.

it seems well researched and true.

hope you'll visit it and comment here.. http://home.online.no/~jansh/wteng/chron.html.

need help re 607 date

by hosebracket in

jw
friends

i am new to this.. i have a problem.

someone on my ministry asked me about the date that we hold so dear....607 bce and asked me to prove it to them.

this would not be a problem i thought as the f&ds would have solid basis for using such a date.

Snowball

Hmm...Scholar still hasnt answered how the 70-year desolation theory conflicts with the scriptures.

25

need help re 607 date

by hosebracket in

jw
friends

i am new to this.. i have a problem.

someone on my ministry asked me about the date that we hold so dear....607 bce and asked me to prove it to them.

this would not be a problem i thought as the f&ds would have solid basis for using such a date.

I can understand your desire to view the WTS writings on chronology to be scholarly, I used to believe so myself. But have you truly checked into all the research? Have you traced the historical evolution of the Gentile Times theory? There are several theological problems that arise with the 70-year desolation theory, are you aware of them? Can you explain why the WTS fails to honestly adress the real issues of the critics?

I am sure that you regard the lengthy information in the Aid/Insight book as credible reliable information. Are you aware that Ray Franz was the writer/researcher of that info? Ray has told of how he became aware of how weak the 607 date was when researching for the Aid book, but feelings of loyalty to the WTS motivated him to defend the WT interpretation at all costs. Later, a Swwedish elder, Carl Olaf Jonsen sent a massive research packet to Bethel outlining exactly why 607 was an erroneous date. Ray was quite impressed with the depth of this research, and it covered many of the things he discovered himself. So, you see, the most scholarly work that the WTS has produced on the 607 chronology, was writen by a man who does not even believe what he wrote himself.

It would behoove you to look further into this issue. But be warned that you may not like what you discover. I certainly did not want to believe that I had put all my faith into an error, but intellectual honesty is important to me, as I am sure it is to you.

I have come to accept that the only real reason for accepting 607 is if you are trying to 'prove' that 1914 is the fulfillment of some biblical prophecy.

My recomendations to you are to read Carl's books: "The Gentile Times Reconsidered", and "The Sign Of The Last Days- When?". You can order them on http://www.commentarypress.com . At least know what the issues are before criticizing them. If you have any valid arguments after reading these books I would certainly like to hear them.

Another thing you should do is analyse the scriptural context in the Bible and see if you are able to recognise how the 70-year desolation theory creates many scriptural problems. I'm not gonna tell you what they are right now. I want to see if you can find them yourself.

Happy searching!

Wayne Rogers

25

need help re 607 date

by hosebracket in

jw
friends

i am new to this.. i have a problem.

someone on my ministry asked me about the date that we hold so dear....607 bce and asked me to prove it to them.

this would not be a problem i thought as the f&ds would have solid basis for using such a date.

Snowball

This was one of the biggest issues that led me out of the WTS. I spent months researching history for some kind of proof that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607. Needless to say, I got very disillusioned.

The archaeological evidence of 587 is concrete. The Neo-Babylonian dynasty is one of the most well-documented eras in ancient history.

So, I started looking more internnally to see what the WTS has taught on the matter. I read Studies In the Scriptures and other old books and came to realize that the doctrine has evolved dramatically over the last century. The whole chronology thing was adopted from the Adventists when Russell met Nelson Barbour as a young man. They origginnally thought that Jerusalem fell in 606 due to their ignorance of how to use math in the counting of years. 1914 and the Gentile Times was only a small part in the elaborate puzzle of Parrallel Dispensations, which outlined correlating periods of years in biblical times to matching year periods in modern times. The whole plan of God was supposed to be proven by measuring the Great Pyramid. 1914 was supposed to be the furthest limit of the rule of mankind on Earth. When that didnt happen it was later re-interpreted as the start of the last days (which was previously held in 1799).

I also carefully read the Bible to see if it supported the 607 date. It soon became apparent that the WTS had made a drastic mistake in thinking that Jeremiahs 70-year prophecy was foretelling a 70-year desolation of Judah. The Bible strongly indicates that this prophecy relates to a 70-year period of Babylon as a world power, which would allow the historic figure of about 50 years that Jerusalem was uninhabited. I also mailed some Jewish historians who agreed that the Babylonian exile was for about 50 years. The WTS constantly refers to historian Josephus figure of 70 years, but fails to ever mention that Josephus had corrected himself in his last writing down to 50 years. I found that the Bible and established history are in harmony on this account. The WTS teachings cause several blundering inconsistencies with the Bible, among the foremost I noticed was the acount of Gedaliah. I shake my head with disbelief that I followed such faulty doctrine for so long.

After my disfellowshipping, I started reading books by ex-JWs that corroborated my findings. As to be expected, I found I was certainly not the first JW to figure these things out! The most comprehensive book on the subject is Carl Olaf Jonsens' :The Gentile Times Reconsidered. His other book: The Sign Of The Last Days- When? is also excellent. Get these books at http://www.commentarypress.com

Happy reading!

Wayne Rogers

20

Creed--Collective Soul--Sixpence

by joel in

jw
friends

whassup!.

i thought i would toss out a few group names with a distinctive spiritual bent to their lyrics...and see what yall thought of them.. creed is big right now...lyrics are...well...you tell me.. same with sixpence none the richer...collective soul...kendall payne(she does that theme song for the show popular)...and others.. there are a number of popular, secular groups with a noticable spiritual message to their lyrics.. any thoughts!?.

pax(peace) to ya my ifriends,.

Snowball

I have virtually every CD by Sarah McLachlan and Tori Amos, and cant go more than a few days without listening to them!

Both have 'spiritual' lyrics...but definitely not orthodox. For those who are more on the agnostic side, you may really like Sarah's version of "Dear God" on her "Rarities,B-Sides and Other Stuff" CD. Or Tori Amos' "God" on her "Under The Pink" CD.

Wayne Rogers

26

GB dies???

by JT in

jw
friends

posted by ernest [ernest] on january 03, 2001 at 14:44:39 {l6c8f8mpkkj.cgracl3y0abnmpk0su}: .

dear friends, .

1/3/01 it was announced at morning worship today that brother karl klein, .

Snowball

Hey JT! Good to see ya over here! Gawd i hardly ever get to H2O anymore. But this group over here just seemed to have a nice homey feel to it so I joined up too. So may forums...so little time. hehe. Ive been pretty busy on Steve Hassans FreedomOfMind list and answering ajwrb mail and starting up a new xjw support group....whew! Where did I ever have time to aux pio like i used to?! LOL

Wayne Rogers

20

Creed--Collective Soul--Sixpence

by joel in

jw
friends

whassup!.

i thought i would toss out a few group names with a distinctive spiritual bent to their lyrics...and see what yall thought of them.. creed is big right now...lyrics are...well...you tell me.. same with sixpence none the richer...collective soul...kendall payne(she does that theme song for the show popular)...and others.. there are a number of popular, secular groups with a noticable spiritual message to their lyrics.. any thoughts!?.

pax(peace) to ya my ifriends,.

Snowball

Jars of Clay is another good band, but is decidedly on the Christian-oriented side.

Sixpence is also Christian-oriented, though not always apparent from their lyrics. They took their name from a passage in a CS Lewis book :"Mere Christianity", about how if we, like a child giving their father a 6-pence that he gave to them originally, gave everything we have to God....we should not boastfully imagine we are giving Him anything He did not already have. Therefore the name: "Sixpence None The Richer".

Wayne Rogers

32

Celtic Music

by Snowball in

i have developed a deep love of celtic music.

i listen to clannad, enya, loreena mckennitt, natalie mcmaster, and capercaillie.. i have also discovered 'celtic rock' when i went to the scottish festival in pleasanton ca last year.

seven nations was playing modern rock music with fiddles and bagpipes.

Snowball

YEA! Lets start our own celtic band! An ex-Borg, a pig, and a red horse....what a motley crew we would make! hahaha!

So what is the flute like? Is it much harder to play than a tin whistle? I've got aspirations of someday playing the ulien pipes. (i know Im spelling that wrong)

Wayne Rogers

18

'Tunnel of Doubts'

by ISP in

jw
friends

tunnel of doubts.

this subject was discussed in the 1. feb.01 wt.

it is an interesting expression, tunnel of doubts as if several doubts merge to produce an overall tunnel from which it could be difficult to emerge.

Snowball

It seems that the WTS persists in viewing doubts as a form of fear or ignorance.They try to avoid the idea that doubts can be the product of informed conclusions.

Wayne Rogers

20

Hello Hello (Continued) Intros ....

by Roamingfeline in

hey, nice to see you again, kismet!!!

where ya been?

i do agree that the other thread was getting a bit long, and totally lost it's original purpose!

Snowball

Hi Y'all!

Yep, Snowball is the character in Orwell's Animal Farm who truly believes in the principles of Animalism and has high ideals about bettering his community. He's not perfect, but he is sincere. Napolean (the totalitarian ruler of the Farm) sics the dogs on Snowball, and banish him from the Farm. They go on to assasinate his character, blaming Snowball for all that goes wrong on the Farm, and weeding out any 'accomplices', whom they promptly execute.

While my own story may be of some mild dramatic interest, the one whom I really think of that fulfills the Snowball character is Ray Franz. Ray definitely gets my 'Snowball Award"!

I had lots of plans for my website when I started it, and had some articles I wanted to write. But I quickly realized just how rapidly my world-view was changing and didnt quite know how to proceed. Now that I'm getting more comfortable with my perceptions and beliefs, Im thinking about getting back to my site and work on it.
I also got me a new scanner and have enlarged my library of old WT literature. I've learned a whole lot about HTML lately and plan to continue with my WT Art Gallery. My 'new years resolutions' I guess! So look for updates throughout the upcoming year.

Wayne Rogers