Posts by towerwatchman

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To: onthewayout.

Give me a break. I am willing to make that absolute statement even though I don't have "unlimited knowledge of this universe." First may we define our terms. The term "flying spaghetti monster" comes literally from a satirical open letter written by Bobby Henderson in 2005 and started a social movement that promotes a light-hearted view of religion and opposes the teaching of intelligent design and creationism in public schools. It is not any lifeform that seems to sort of look like spaghetti, but rather it is the silly "god" made of spaghetti that created the universe. I am confident there is no god, but for most atheists, confidence that all the specifically defined gods do not exist is sufficient. If you think it is self defeating to say there is absolutely no flying spaghetti monster, then you might expect it to show up one day. I am positive that it won't, and equally positive that "God" won't either. I would love to be eating my words and "he" shows me up for taking such a self defeating stand.

The argument commits the fallacy of false analogy. Just because the issues at hand are alike in trivial ways it does not make it relevant to the conclusion. The creator of a false analogy is saying, "Accept my argument because of these superficial similarities between what you are proposing and my fictitious comparator." And here is the gap.

At its core the FSM argument is two fold.

(1) the chance of God existing is extremely low – similar to that of a Flying Spaghetti Monster;

(2) there is no evidence that God exists, just like there is no evidence of a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

When it comes to the existence of God let’s see how low is low. What evidence is there for God's existence? The Christian points to Genesis and the universe as proof that God exist. The atheist says no and points to slime plus time as proof of the existence of life. But what the atheist fails to notice is that the odds of the essential elements coming together over time by chance to form the initial building blocks of one cell is a statistical impossibility. Which would a cognitive individual put his money on?

There is no evidence for the existence of God. Historically, the life of Jesus of Nazareth affirms the existence of God. No scholar, Christian or secular, denies the life, teachings, or extraordinary reports about Jesus.

Belief in God

(1) Prevalent among all peoples of all times. Atheism is very rare; even atheists admit this.

(2) There are many sophisticated philosophical arguments for God’s existence.

(3) The Christian God is a coherent explanation of why something exists rather than nothing, why logic is prescriptive and universal, why morality is objective, and why religion is ubiquitous.

(4) Belief in God is rationally satisfying.

Belief in Flying Spaghetti Monsterism

(1) Believed by no one. Even the so-called advocates of the FSM do not really believe that it exists.

(2) There are no technical philosophical arguments for the FSM. Actually, there are no technical arguments of any kind for the FSM.

(3) Even those who sarcastically espouse that the FSM exists don’t really believe that the FSM exists, nor do they think that the FSM is a coherent explanation for finite contingent being, logic, morality, beauty, etc.

(4) No one really believes in the FSM, but even if they did, it would not be rationally satisfying.

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Finkelstein

Anything can be imagined but you have to have evidence to make it into reality, there has been no evidence of god(s) but only hearsay drawn out imagination and ignorance of the world in which we live. There is a reason why there haven't been any new envisioned gods in the last 1000 years or more before BCE there were hundreds. The reason why is because human ignorance is an indefensible fact.

Let’s see what takes more faith?

When it comes to the existence of God lets see how low is low. What evidence is there for God's existence? The Christian points to Genesis and the universe as proof that God exist. The atheist says no and points to slime plus time as proof of the existence of life. But what the atheist fails to notice is that the odds of the essential elements coming together over time by chance to form the initial building blocks of one cell is a statistical impossibility. Which would a cognitive individual put his money on?

DNA is a code, communicates the instructions for assembling proteins, but the cell needs proteins to transcribe and translate the information. 1.3 billion bits of information, placed in precise order. The probability of placing 15 base pairs in the right sequence is 1x 10 20 power. The only known cause that can do this is intelligence. My faith is based on logic, reason, and proven facts.

Yours, we are the byproduct of slime plus time. A cosmic accident that blindly evolved over time. Even though the evidence prove that this is an impossibility, you take it by faith.

There is no evidence for the existence of God. Historically, the life of Jesus of Nazareth affirms the existence of God. No scholar, Christian or secular, denies the life, teachings, or extraordinary reports about Jesus.

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Rainbow Troll

Empirically speaking, theism could never be totally refuted since, as you pointed out, no one is omniscient.
However, putting that aside for a moment, there are certain logical reasons that the theist God could not exist. Some of the attributes of this alleged being are impossible. Take omnipotence as an example. Is God able to create something indestructible, that not even he could destroy or uncreate? Whether you answer yes or no, his omnipotence is refuted. Or what about his omniscience? Can the theist God ask a question that even he can't answer? If he can, he is not omniscient. If he cannot, he is not omnipotent.

Yes or no are both wrong answers. Why limit my choices to two only?

Same as can God create a rock so big He cannot carry it.

If something is self-contradicting it is absolutely impossible. The absolutely impossible may also be called the intrinsically impossible because it carries its impossibility within itself, instead of borrowing it from other impossibilities which in their turn depend upon others. It has no “unless” clause attached to it. It is impossible under all conditions and in all worlds and for all agents.

All agents here include God Himself. His Omniscience means having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight and always possessing universal or complete knowledge, therefore as it applies to us, knew exactly how He was going to create us and all the possible choices we make and the outcomes before He created us. You may attribute miracles to God but not nonsense. Yes there is no limit to His knowledge. If you chose to say “God can gives you free will to choose and at the same time say that God knew exactly what choice you will make from your birth to your death, before you were born, you have succeeded in saying nothing about God, because meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words “God can”. It remains true that all things are possible with God, the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities.

It is impossible for God to carry out both mutually exclusive alternatives, not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

Is God omnibenevolent; a being of pure love? But who could he have loved before he created the Son and with him everyone else?

Suggest you brush up on your knowledge of Christianity. The Father , Son, and HS are all eternal beings.

More importantly, if this God was all alone in the beginning, how could he have developed a language that would have allowed him to conceptualize, reason and so be capable of creating a universe? Language is a social phenomena. A single, eternal God could not develop a language and without language, conceptual thought, reasoning, mathematics - everything this God would need to create anything - would be impossible for him.

Why, again following Christianity God the Son spoke creation into being. We as humans communicate via language. Why would an all powerful being be limited to language in order to communicate? To communicate one does not need a language but a means of exchanging and expressing ideas.

Did God create the Universe - the universe being defined mathematically as the set of all things existing in space-time? But space-time itself defines existence. A being that that created space-time would have to exist outside of it and therefore, would ipso facto not exist.

Why?

The second law of thermodynamics states that the universe had a beginning. Cause and effect states that everything that begins to exist owes its existence to something prior. Role it back to that point of singularity when the first effect came into existence. Question what is the cause?

The cause of the universe therefore must be a transcendent cause beyond the universe. It must be itself uncaused, because we have seen that an infinite series of causes is impossible. It must transcend space and time, since it created space and time, therefore it must be immaterial and nonphysical. And must be unimaginably powerful since it created all matter and energy and finally and must be a personal being, only a mind could fit the above description of the first cause. And it must be a personal being, because this is the only way to explain how a timeless cause can produce a temporal effect with a beginning like the universe. If the cause is impersonal and sufficient to produce its effect, then if the effect is there the cause must be there also.

Now if the cause of the universe is permanently there and is timeless, why isn't the universe permanently there as well, why did the universe come into being, why isn't it as permanent as its cause? The answer to the problem must be that the clause is a personal being with free will, therefore His act of creating the universe is independent of any prior conditions; something spontaneous and new.

You see, even though I may never be able to disprove theism using the scientific/empirical method, I can easily refute it using logic alone.

Did not even come close.

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Scratchme 1010

What a load of crap. Atheism doesn't "denounce" anything. Again, this seems to be based on the premises that (a) Atheists are an organization like the ones theists join, (b) all atheists are somehow united in the same way of thinking as the WT brainwashes people to be, (c) atheists compare notes, get instructions or are aligned with each other and believe the exact same thing (d) atheists are "against" or "anti" something, or (e) we simply refuse to listen to anything other than what reinforces what they believe. All that is just nonsense.

Should take a look at the name on the banner. A-theist

A= against, negative, Theist = God in any form.

Seem to all fit.

Sweetie, it is very simple. We don't need to prove the non existence of God, we don't need to prove anything to you, and for that we don't need a bible, nor a congregation, and certainly not "unlimited knowledge of the universe", whatever that means, anyway to feel confident in pour non-believes. Get over it.

Read the OP, never claimed that Atheist had to prove anything, it is what Atheist claimed by the name they choose.

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Saethydd

Theism is guilty of what you are accusing Atheism of doing.

Need to elaborate.

Theists tend to argue that God is necessary because intelligent life must have an innate purpose and/or creator. How can you know that humans aren't simply the first intelligent beings in this chain of purpose? At least humans can be proven to exist with a relative degree of certainty.

The second law of thermodynamics states that the universe had a beginning. Cause and effect states that everything that begins to exist owes its existence to something prior. Role it back to that point of singularity when the first effect came into existence. Question what is the cause?

The cause of the universe therefore must be a transcendent cause beyond the universe. It must be itself uncaused, because we have seen that an infinite series of causes is impossible. It must transcend space and time, since it created space and time, therefore it must be immaterial and nonphysical. And must be unimaginably powerful since it created all matter and energy and finally and must be a personal being, only a mind could fit the above description of the first cause. And it must be a personal being, because this is the only way to explain how a timeless cause can produce a temporal effect with a beginning like the universe. If the cause is impersonal and sufficient to produce its effect, then if the effect is there the cause must be there also.

Now if the cause of the universe is permanently there and is timeless, why isn't the universe permanently there as well, why did the universe come into being, why isn't it as permanent as its cause? The answer to the problem must be that the clause is a personal being with free will, therefore His act of creating the universe is independent of any prior conditions; something spontaneous and new.

However, God, if he existed, would be an intelligent being which has no innate purpose and/or creator, rather, he is to have decided his own purpose after spending an eternity doing... something. Talking to himself perhaps.

Why does God have to have a purpose? Is there some rule that must be followed?

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Village idiot.

Let’s test your statement.

Point to any cognitive being that claims to be a unicorn or espouses and promotes the unicorn worldview?

Point to any cognitive being that claims to be an Atheist or espouses and promotes the Ateist worldview?

Seem to live up to your name.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

towerwatchman

cofty

Slavery

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another. - Lev.25:44

If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property. - Ex.21:20

And we shall repeat.

Owning somebody as property.

Not that simple, in ancient times there was no welfare programs for the needy. People either sold themselves or their family into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure, they basically exchanged labor for food and housing. Notice the rules in the Bible about slavery are there to protect the slave.

Killing a slave punishable up to death.

"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished." (Exodus 21:20)

"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth." (Exodus 21:26-27)

"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:12)

No work on the Sabbath.

"Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves. (Exodus 23:12)

Slander a slave

Do not slander a slave to his master, Or he will curse you and you will be found guilty. (Proverbs 30:10l

Have sex with another man's slave,

Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free. (Leviticus 19:20)

Return an escaped slave.

"You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. (Deuteronomy 23:15)

A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in 7 years or in the year of jubilee (which occurred every 50 years), whichever came first.

'If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave's service. 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers. 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale. 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God. (Leviticus 25:39-43)

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2)

The slave owner was encouraged to "pamper his slave".

He who pampers his slave from childhood Will in the end find him to be a son. (Proverbs 29:21)

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

towerwatchman

Cofty

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man... Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community... The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was.. 32,000 women who had never slept with a man. - Num.31:18

Your post claims sex slaves, nothing here supports that. We call this taking verses in isolation. I can take any verse, keep it in isolation, and apply any twist to it. And this is what you are doing. God punished these people for inviting Israel to worship their gods. Read Num 25. God punished them, He used Israel as His instrument of punishment. What I find interesting is no one argues against Noah’s flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah where God killed everyone, but they argue against this, why? God used Israel as His instrument to dispense His justice, so that Israel and anyone that reads the accounts can see the real and ugly result of sin.

BTW the ‘virgins’ were kept alive and absorbed into Israel by marriage.

When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. - Deut.21:11

BTW why would it matter to an Atheist that someone has a sex slave. It does not matter now, why should it matter then? Everyone wants to jump on the “Sex slave trafficking” wagon, on one end and support the industry that fuels the appetite. America’s greatest export is pornography, which fuels the appetite, which claims protection under the First Amendment. Without an objective source how does the Atheist address this dilemma ?

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

towerwatchman

To Rebel

I understand your position. i once was ;part of the organization also. What I noticed was, it was not God that let me down by the WTS. The Bible makes sense, the WTS does not. Again judge a movement by its originator and not by its followers. Does the WTS follow the teaching of Jesus or went against it. If the actions of the WTS are a logical outworking of Christianity, then give Christianity up, but if the WTS goes against Jesus' teachings then give up the WTS and embrace Jesus.

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

Atheism = self defeating.

First may we define our terms. The word Atheism comes literally from the Greek, alpha the negative and theos [for God], therefore “negative God” or there is no God. It is not saying, “I do not think or believe there is a God”, rather it affirms the non existence of God. It affirms a negative in the absolute. Anyone who took philosophy 101 knows you cannot affirm a negative in the absolute. It is a logical contradiction. Therefore it is self defeating. It also breaks the rule of non contradiction by ascribing to itself a divine attribute while at the same time denying the existence of the Divine. Atheism not only denounces the existence of God, but by its own definition denounces the principle by which it criticizes the reality of God. To make an absolute statement in the negative is similar to saying that nowhere in the universe does there exist a flying spaghetti monster. For the atheist to make such a claim he must have unlimited knowledge of this universe. What the atheist is fundamentally saying is that he has infinite knowledge of this universe to affirm that there exist no being with infinite knowledge. It is self defeating.