Posts by towerwatchman

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

towerwatchman

To Cofty

Perhaps you can understand why I am repulsed by your admission. It is impossible that I would ever obey an order to kill women and infants in cold blood. For somebody like you who is committed to unquestioning obedience to an invisible deity, infanticide is not even controversial.

Be honest, what was the background to the question. Being in Joshua’s army. Now if I was in Joshua’s army I would have seen miracle after miracle from God proving who He is, and not an invisible unknown deity. It is rather dishonest and insulting to state that I am committed to murder.

This is why I believe that objective morality is impossible if you root it in the will of a deity. If god orders you to murder babies then murdering babies becomes a moral good.

Again it is not murder, but God carrying out His justice. What happened between God and some of those civilizations is not known, but what is known is that God was patient with them and they continued to sin. Outside of God any morals would be either pragmatic, utilitarian, and subjective, never objective.

A better system of morality is rooted in the consequences of our actions for the well-being of conscious creatures. Actually this is what we mean when we talk about morals or ethics.

Morality is ultimately the result of an implicit agreement among civilized people.

When Trog want something Og have, Trog hit Og on head and take it. When Og want thing back, Og get big club, hit Trog on head, and take thing back. Og take things too. After much thinking Trog and Og sit down and forge an agreement. Trog and Og agree to stop swinging their clubs at each other’s head, for the liberties, such as the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Trog and Og will be motivated to keep the terms of their agreement only as long as they believe that doing so is ultimately what serves their interest. When it serves Og’s interest he will hit Trog overhead again. There is no ‘ought’ in the agreement. No moral obligation There is no objective reason why man should be moral unless morality pays off in his social life or makes him feel good.

There is no advantage for me to take care of grandma when she gets old, she just becomes a burden on the food supply. Why keep a cripple child around, they are not going to contribute. It is not advantageous to scratch your back because one day you might scratch mine. It is advantageous to knock you over the head as I scratch your back and take everything.

If there is no God, then there is no objective standard of right and wrong.

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Finklestien

Well you stated that the the universe was caused by an intelligent designer, I showed you information that put critical evaluation to that posed statement.

I
must have missed it. Please re-post.

Another thing to think about is that are own sun (star) which makes life possible on are planet will burn out like all other stars in the future, leaving this planet uninhabitable, so does it make logical sense that an intelligent creator would create things which his other creations would eventually destroy out of existence ?

That is true, it follows the second law of thermodynamics. But again why would some possible dooms day scenario that may or may not happen equate to the non existence of God. Again if an all powerful God that created all is in the equation why should I fear a sun burning out if He is present.

205

Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

by towerwatchman in

mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.

morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.

using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.

towerwatchman

To shepherdless

Most Christians do NOT believe in a "supernatural intelligent designer".

That is a sweeping generalization. I can accept some, but not most.

From what David Jay says, it appears Jews don't either.

Jew could be either nationality or religion. The most we have here is his opinion.

Most Christians accept (and are often even taught) that Genesis should not be read literally, and that evolution is a fact.

Christians are taught evolution because it is required in school. The majority of Christian I know and have known do not believe in evolution.

Most of the Christians that do believe in a "supernatural intelligent designer" come from fundamentalist Christian sects (such as JWism) that have arisen in the last couple of hundred years in USA.

From the Early Church Fathers to the Roman Catholic Church to the different denominations that arose from the Protestant movement, Genesis was taught as literal. Evolution did not come into the equation till after Darwin.

205

Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

by towerwatchman in

mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.

morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.

using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.

towerwatchman

To Finklestein

To be intellectually honest there are indeed some weak spots on molecular biology that needs further conformation but that doesn't dismiss all other acquired information that supports biological evolution as definable concept or science.

We can be here forever discussing evolution. What settles the argument? The closes point to the creation of life. So the question becomes not what is the origin of life but the origin of biological information. Bring cause and effect into the equation. If an effect has only one known cause then the presence of the effect is enough to support the presence of the cause. The only known cause of information is intelligence.

205

Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

by towerwatchman in

mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.

morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.

using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.

towerwatchman

To David_Jay

From antiquity Jews have viewed the creation account in Genesis as allegory. It is based on the tableau paradigm used to describe the building of the Tabernacle, Solomon's Temple, and Ezekiel's Temple. Because of this the Genesis account is not literal. The first chapter of Genesis is considered the last section of Torah to be composed, added after our return from Babylon.

In Genesis day is interpreted from [yowm /yome/] which translates as “day” 2008 times, “time” 64 times, “chronicles ” 37 times, “daily” 32 times, “ever” 17 times, “year” 14 times, “continually” 10 times, “when” 10 times, “as” 10 times, “while” eight times, “full always” four times, “whole” four times, “alway” four times, and translated miscellaneously 44 times. The semantic range of a word is all the possible meanings of that word in the given language. Yome’s semantic range is restricted to only five meanings. 1.a period of light in a day night cycle, 2. a period of twenty four hours 3. a general or vague concept of time. 4. a specific point of time 5. a period of a year.

The fallacy in Day Age lies in the supposition that the meaning of “yome” in the context of Genesis is much broader than Genesis allows and attempts to explain into Genesis a different meaning from its semantic range. To properly interpret the meaning of a word, the meaning must be determined by how it is used in the specific context, not by possible meanings in unrelated contexts. It should be noted that when yome is used for a period of time it is heavily modified by other time indicators such as the word for year or month.

And even in those cases, it is that others time unit word that gives its length of duration, not the use of yome.

What is ignored is the interesting pattern yome has in Genesis 1 in the original language, which is not reflected in English translations. The first day has a cardinal number [one] with a definite article, “the” others have ordinal numbers [second, third, fourth]. Genesis 1:5 begins the cycle of the day, with the creation of day and night. Evening is the transition from light/day to darkness/ night and morning is the transition from darkness/night to light/day. Having an evening and a morning amounts to having one full day. Hence, the following equation is what Genesis 1:5 expresses, 1 evening + 1 morning = one day. Therefore, by using a most unusual grammatical construction, Genesis 1:5 is defining what a day is, a simple 24 hour period.

Since I don't recognize Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah or as any type of authrority, you are still failing to answer my question on how you know you are right about what you claim regarding God.

You are basically asking me how I know that the Genesis account is literal and true. I gave you my answer. Whether you recognize Jesus or not that is irrelevant. My second answer which you seem to ignore is based on the sciences.

My point is that you are not greater than the imperfect and uninspired Governing Body, are you? Claiming you are an exJW isn't a gold star on your resume. It just tells others that you probably weren't smart enough to avoid joining a cult. If you weren't right about your choice to become a JW, how do you know you are correct now? Just because you're an exJW now doesn't mean you are suddenly right about all you currently believe, including evolution. You need more than what you're saying because people who joined cults don't have a great track record when it comes to being right about what they claim is true. I believe your sincerity that you are so sure now about what you're saying, but wasn't that also true when you used to be a JW too? In other words, don't tell me how you know you're right. Tell me how you know you can't possibly be wrong. What are your fail-safes? Demonstrate how your conviction about evolution cannot possibly be a holdover from Watchtower indoctrination. I might be more willing to accept your statements once you do that.

Tell me did you make a conscious decision to join the WTS or where you raised in it. I was raised in it and then late in my teens left. Such insulting generalizations. And people wonder why sometimes I become mean. I believe in respecting everyone regardless. Even when discussing over the internet, give the same amount of respect as if the person is sitting next to me. I am confident that if I was discussing the topics face to face with these insulting posters, 99% of the insults would have been deferred.

And lastly, just because I didn't print out the entire title to "Origin" doesn't mean I was speaking about a different book. Your reply however does suggest you may get some type of satisfaction in being unkind. I hope I am wrong about that. I am sure you didn't mean to come across that way. Christians generally try to be nice, unless I am mistaken about that too and you claim to be neither.

One way I know someone has not read Darwin is by asking the for the complete title.

As to Judeo- Christian it is simple. Christians believe in the God of what we call the Old Testament. Genesis to Malachi. Only a self centered individual would consider that Judeo-Christian is some attempt to harmonize both world view.

Evolution is widely accepted by Jews across the world. We have no reason to claim that Adonai did not create life by use of evolution.

Care to give scriptural proof from the Hebrew Scriptures that evolution is true.

205

Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

by towerwatchman in

mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.

morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.

using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.

towerwatchman

To Finklestien

Strange is it not that astrophysicists date the physical occurrences in outer space in the millions and billions of years but for some reason this particular creator from Judaeo Christianity was able to create the universe and this planet with all living things on it a time frame of days.
You dont think that human ignorance had anything to do with this suggestion do you ?

From that post this the best you can do? This is why I rather not post personal opinion but stick to the facts and the evidence. Note nothing i have posted as evidence is supported by the Judeo Christian belief in a supernatural intelligent designer.

Again the evidence points to an intelligent designer, you believe man crawled out of pond scum over millions of years. And you question ignorance.

205

Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

by towerwatchman in

mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.

morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.

using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.

towerwatchman

To Finkestien

A tremendous amount more knowledge has been accumulated since Darwin and his founding ideological suggestions of evolution, something that creationists fail to acknowledge or accept.

I keep hearing about this tremendous amount of knowledge, but no one seems to either want to share it, or maybe they do not know where it is. Could you please share you extensive knowledge of macro evolution with us. Please?

205

Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

by towerwatchman in

mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.

morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.

using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.

towerwatchman

To finklestien

Thanks for all that information on dating rocks, Please note, we are not discussing geology, but Cytochrome c. In this discussion the age of rocks is irrelevant. As to seals being transitional please elaborate.

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205

Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

by towerwatchman in

mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.

morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.

using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.

towerwatchman

To WhatshallIcallmyself

I think TWM is referring to a book called 'Evolution: A theory in crisis' written in 1985 by M.J. Denton. In this book this biochemist (I think) makes the same suggestions as TWM is now doing some 30 years later.

The OP was cute and past from notes used to write a term paper long ago. I believe George Bush was running for president that year. I searched in my library for 'Evolution: A theory in crisis' and did not find it. It could well be the book, over the years I have given away, thrown away and lost many books. Sounds familiar so let’s say it is.

This critique from talkorigins.org explains why M.J Denton is wrong; there is also a second review of his book linked on that page that makes for good reading to those interested.

Please note, on the topic of evolution vs creation, every book written on the subject has been criticized.

Denton makes a show of cytochrome-c amino acid substitution numbers appearing to divide all life into typologically distinct classes. But this kind of division is to be expected, considering that we derived the numbers from contemporary organisms, and not from fossilized organisms. talkorigins.org

One has to ask, if we are measuring the difference of cytochrome-c in the evolutionary hierarchy why do we have to use fossilized samples vs the latest samples? The latest samples would be the best choice.

To be fair, considering you are posting ideas that were debunked those 30 odd years ago when they were first asserted, you should be thankful of any attention and not dismissive of it as you are with Simon's contribution.

Debunked where? The above? Not even close. But if you have something that debunks the OP and not some publication, please post. I prefer the truth vs a lie. As for Simon that is not a contribution. I can post hundreds of videos that are either pro ID or anti evolution.

Also, you keep alluding that faith is needed to accept evolution. That statement tells me all I need to know about the level of your understanding of the work involved in the natural sciences...

My faith is based on science, math, logic and reason. Before I believe in my heart it has to make sense in my mind. My belief in ID is based on the sciences, logic and reason. What is evolution based on? Drawing together desperate lines of observational evidence and presenting an argument from a novel interpretation of that evidence.

That takes faith to believe. I do not have that kind of faith.

205

Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

by towerwatchman in

mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.

morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.

using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.

towerwatchman

David_Jay

My point is that your claiming to be a theist while claiming God did not create life via evolution presumes limits on your definition of God.

No it does not, in fact does the opposite.

Making God fit into such definite limitations is an attempt to create an idol. You don't have to build a literal golden calf to make God into a man-made image. You can do so by doctrine, saying that God can do such and such, but God cannot do this or does not do that. Humans who create definitions like "God does not create via evolution" are creating a god for themselves no different than the idolatry Christians claim to detest. How can a mortal have a complete comprehension of what God can and cannot and does not do in reference to creating life?

When it comes to the Judeo Christian God, He did not create via evolution, but spoke and it appeared according to the creation account in Genesis.

Answer me this: If there is a God, why can't God create by means of evolution? Why is the only possibility the one you are stating?

There is no evidence for macro evolution. It is all speculation. God is sovereign, He can create as He wishes; He chose to create in six days.

How do you know that your views of God and how God created life are correct? Even the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses claims that that they are not inspired and have made mistakes and that Christ never promised "perfect" spiritual food "at the proper time." If this is so, how can you guarantee that your view that God did not create the world by evolution is free of imperfections or complete?

First I am an ex JW, so I have no affiliation with them.

I believe it via to avenues.

1. Jesus: He verified that everything He said was truth via His Resurrection, this includes His statement that the Old Testament was true.

2. Science: The evidence proves more and more that the universe did not just popped out of nowhere or that we evolved from slim via time, but points to an intelligent designer.

And where does evolution teach there is no God? Charles Darwin was honored by the Church of England with a burial in Westminster Abbey for his achievements in this work. While Darwin was an agnostic, he never taught there was no possibility of God, and mainstream Christianity even embraced his work as offering the scientific answer to how life came to be. The Bishop of Carlisle stated in Darwin's memorial funeral sermon: "It would have been unfortunate if anything had occurred to give weight and currency to the foolish notion which some have diligently propagated, but for which Mr. Darwin was not responsible, that there is a necessary conflict between a knowledge of Nature and a belief in God."

In “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life”, Darwin did not try to explain the origin of the first life. Instead, he sought to explain the origin of new forms of live from simpler preexisting forms, forms that already possessed the ability to reproduce. His theory assumed rather than explained the origin of the first living thing. His masterpiece contains neither a single mathematical equation nor any report of original experimental research. He developed his theory by drawing together desperate lines of observational evidence and presenting an argument from a novel interpretation of that evidence.

Darwin read “Principles of Geology” by Charles Lyell, whose central methodological principle was. ‘To explain the former changes of the earth’s surface, by reference to causes now in operation.’ According to Lyell, our present experience of cause and effect should guide our reasoning about the causes of past events. Lyell argued that when historical scientist are seeking to explain events in the past, they should not invoke unknown or exotic causes, the effects of which we do not know, instead, they should cite causes that are known from our uniform experience to have the power to produce the effect in question.

Darwin appealed to this principle to argue that presently observed micro evolutionary processes of change could be used to explain the origin of new forms of life in the past [macro evolution]. Since the observed process of natural selection can produce a small amount of change in a short time, Darwin argued that it was capable of producing a large amount of change over a long period of time.

The success of Darwin’s theory inspired attempts at ‘extending evolution backward’ in order to explain the origin of the first life. Darwin’s account of how species can evolved evokes a mindless process called natural selection, and excluded intelligent design.

I find that most people who take sides on this issue have never read Origin of Species or even seen a copy. Have you? Do you know what Darwin actually said? Most who have an opinion have never read Darwin's own notes or his views on how what he discovered applied to theological concepts. Most only know what they do from secondhand sources, or just through blurbs, cited quotes, or watching a television program or two. Suddenly such people believe they have enough information to form an opinion. Some people will even read books on the subject but still never the actual information written by Darwin himself. The issue of evolution is not one about whether there is a God or not, so it does only harm to the religionist who fails to educate themselves on the matter.

I never read “Origin of Species” but I have read “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life”. [Charles Darwin]

There is grandeur in this [natural selection] view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. [Darwin]

Darwin wrote “On the Origin of Species…” not “On the Origin of Life.’ In the passage above Darwin places the ‘Creator’ at the beginning, and it was He that ‘breathed’ the laws of natural selection into each living creature. Seems he was attempting to graft his theory into the creation account.

Afterwards Neo-Darwinism extended evolution backward to assume that the first life was a simple cell that evolved into the complex an diverse spectrum of live we see today, via the mechanisms of evolution.