mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.
morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.
using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.
Caedes
We can go around and around and end up nowhere. Why not address the topics. Just as other cut and paste, because sometimes the author conveys the idea better than I can does not equate to the material being wrong.
If you submitted something and I did not answer, my apologies, please post again and i will address it.
Suggest we all stop the hostilities and address the topic.
mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.
morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.
using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.
Branfloss
My apologies, it was a typo.
atheism = self defeating.
first may we define our terms.
the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.
Is the Bible a reliable document?
What is considered credible ancient text?
Caesar written 1 century BC, earliest copy 900 AD, number of copies 10
Tacitus written 1 century AD, earliest copy 1100 AD, number of copies 20
Thucydides written 5 century BC, earliest copy 900AD, number of copies 8
Demosthenes written 4 century BC, earliest copy 1100 AD, number of copies 200
Homer written 9 century BC, 643 copies 95% accurate.
All considered credible by scholars.
New Testament 1 century AD [50-100], earliest copy 2 century AD [100-130] number of copies from antiquity 5000, accuracy 99%, partial manuscripts 19000, quotations by the early church fathers 86000.
And people still question the Bible's credibility.
atheism = self defeating.
first may we define our terms.
the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.
Extra Biblical Evidence supporting the life. death, and Resurrection of Jesus.
Josephus 1 century Jewish historian and servant of Titus and his father Vespasian, wrote the following while discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
Cornelius Tactitus {54 AD -117AD] Annals 15.44 [Some words adjusted to modern English for clarity].
But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiation of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Chrestians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most destructive superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in the capital, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of setting fire to the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.
Pliny the Younger was a lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome 61-113 AD
In a letter he wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan around 112 AD.
“They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god,”
atheism = self defeating.
first may we define our terms.
the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.
To Unsure.
Nobody is disputing that the universe had a beginning. I am not disputing that the universe had a beginning. I only asked that you do not use it as an argument because it is not proof that God created the universe.
But it is the proof that the universe came from a timeless cognitive cause.
You've repeated this a few times in response to me. Each time I ask what what cognition has to do with it but you repeat the same thing that caused the confusion in the first place. I'll ask you again; How does the cause being personal explain how a timeless cause can bring about a temporal effect? How does cognition make a difference as opposed to a non-cognitive parallel universe (which may have spawned ours)? PLEASE do not copy and paste the same response, please rephrase.
It is a bit confusing in the beginning. Look around, everything you see is temporal. Everything you see owes its existence to something prior. Every cause and effect from the beginning of the universe till now is temporal. Temporal causes bring about temporal effects. Same logic applies to timeless cause, they bring about timeless effects. [Everything mention up to now is non cognitive].
For a timeless cause to bring about a temporal effect, it had to be a choice made by the timeless cause. If the timeless cause was non cognitive the effect will be timeless also.
Since we are re-pasting: Scientists have as much proof of parallel universes (please google it) as creationists have of the existence of God if we are being fair. Yes some may argue against it, just like many argue against the existence of God.
If you have a good link, post it, I will read it.
In a previous post you described parallel universes as all speculation and metaphysics when others use this same argument against the existence of a God. God is described as being beyond our universe, therefor metaphysical, and belief in him/her is "speculation" (plus even further speculation of which God is the right one). Faith is speculation. Do you not see the irony in YOU arguing against parallel universes describing them as "speculation" and "metaphysics" when belief in God is described in the EXACT same way?
The historical evidence for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus is overwhelming. We have Biblical and external evidence that Jesus lived, died, was buried and resurrected in Jerusalem. Note, it is one thing to start a religion based on the resurrection of someone in a faraway land a long time ago; and it is another thing for a new faith, anchored in the resurrection of a man, takes off in the very city that man was crucified and buried, in less than a year. Jesus had many enemies. All they had to do was produce a body, anybody, after several days it would have been unrecognizable. But nobody did. No one produced a body. Why? Because the tomb was empty.
The prophetic element in the Old Testament that is fulfilled in the New Testament, we see the miraculous. We have 66 books, written by over 40 authors, over 1500 years, books on prophecy, philosophy, and history. After 2000 years of textural scrutiny, the hardest skeptic will tell you there is no document in early history that has the internal collaboration, documentation- historical and archaeological that the Bible has.
f I were to agree with all your arguments and agree that there is an intelligent designer, what evidence is there to say that this is God? What evidence is there to say that it is God that created the universe and not a group of advanced, cognitive inter-dimensional beings who reside in another universe who had the power to create our universe? Who's to say our universe is not a simulation created by some other advanced alien being? Please google simulation theory and please do not respond saying it is all "speculation" and "metaphysics" without agreeing that belief in God is all "speculation" and "metaphysics".
All you are doing is moving the goal post back. Unless these being are eternal, they have a cause also.
Why are there so many religions?
Because when someone wants to affirm a truth, there will always be someone wanting to affirm the opposite. Truth by definition is exclusive, so it excludes all other systems. Every world view is exclusive.
Why are there so many denominations within each?
Unity is not uniformity.
atheism = self defeating.
first may we define our terms.
the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.
To Brianfloss
Admittadly fear is what I used to feel. 40 years of trying to worship a god that would not reveal himself. A book of contradictory riddles that allow those who claim to understand them, to minipulate and control others, abandoning completely those who ask questions, they have no answers to. They break up families,they cover up abuse, they deny medical care, they limit education all in the name of a god who IS LOVE. Fear? No not fear. Dredging up the past? Ha! To your god a day is a 1000 years so 2008 is not a very deep dredge and, frankly the argument is the same on your side in those old posts, So what are you afraid of.
Allow me to ask this question. The wrong that you experienced, was that a logical outworking of what Jesus taught, or was it contrary to Jesus’ teachings? Judge a movement by its originator, not its followers. Some followers will always abuse in order to control. That is human nature, especially in religious matters gone wrong. I have been burned once also. I believe ‘fool me one shame on you’, “fool me twice shame on me.’ Wake up one morning and realized everything I was taught was a lie. I did not give up on God, I gave up on the WTS.
But if there is a god who requires that you believe in him for salvation ( whatever that means to you) , why not give some compelling evidence to mankind, or screw mankind why not give some compelling evidence to me I have certainly given an honest effort searching. He allegedly gave us the Bible but the Bible doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Garden of eden, flood. 40 years wandering in the dessert. The list goes on. Even if science has been deceived by the devil why were the people that lived thousands of years ago allowed to see miracles and tangeble evidence of god but we must rely on faith alone. It's backwards there understanding of the world would have been more likely to let faith be their guide. Surely god knew that science would say that man was far older then eden. That the animals we have today couldn't be here from a worldwide flood just a few thousand years ago. He knew that there would be no evidence of hundreds of thousands of people lost in the desert for 40 years. And whether or not science is right or the devil is blinding mans eyes, why do ancient people get to see god and we don't.
The historical evidence for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus is overwhelming. The prophetic element in the Old Testament that is fulfilled in the New Testament, we see the miraculous. We have 66 books, written by over 40 authors, over 1500 years, books on prophecy, philosophy, and history. After 2000 years of textural scrutiny, the hardest skeptic will tell you there is no document in early history that has the internal collaboration, documentation- historical and archaeological that the Bible has.
The problem is not more evidence, that problem is that we want it our way. Again I am sorry for what happened. Man abusing religion to control others does not equate to there being no God.
we believe in marx freud and darwin.
we believe everything is ok as long as you don’t hurt anyone to the best of your definition of hurt, and to the best of your knowledge.. we believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.. we believe in the therapy of sin.. we believe that adultery is fun.. we believe that sodomy’s ok.. we believe that taboos are taboo.. we believe that everything’s getting better despite evidence to the contrary.. the evidence must be investigated, and you can prove anything with evidence.. we believe there’s something in horoscopes, ufo’s and bent spoons.. jesus was a good man just like buddha, mohammed, and ourselves.. he was a good moral teacher though we think, his good morals were bad.. we believe that all religions are basically the same-at least the one that we read was.. they all believe in love and goodness.. they only differ on matters of creation, sin, heaven, hell, god, and salvation.. we believe that after death comes the nothing, because when you ask the dead what happens.
they say nothing.. if death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then its compulsory heaven for all excepting perhaps.
We believe in Marx Freud and Darwin
We believe everything is OK as long as you don’t hurt anyone to the best of your definition of hurt, and to the best of your knowledge.
We believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.
We believe in the therapy of sin.
We believe that adultery is fun.
We believe that sodomy’s OK.
We believe that taboos are taboo.
We believe that everything’s getting better despite evidence to the contrary.
The evidence must be investigated, and you can prove anything with evidence.
We believe there’s something in horoscopes, UFO’s and bent spoons.
Jesus was a good man just like Buddha, Mohammed, and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher though we think, His good morals were bad.
We believe that all religions are basically the same-at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of creation, sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.
We believe that after death comes the Nothing, because when you ask the dead what happens
they say nothing.
If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then its compulsory heaven for all excepting perhaps
Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Kahn
We believe in Masters and Johnson
What’s selected is average. What’s average is normal. What’s normal is good.
We believe in total disarmament.
We believe there are direct links between warfare and bloodshed.
Americans should beat their guns into tractors. And the Russians would be sure to follow.
We believe that man is essentially good. It’s only his behavior that lets him down.
This is the fault of society. Society is the fault of conditions. Conditions are the fault of society.
We believe that each man must find the truth that is right for him.
Reality will adapt accordingly. The universe will readjust. History will alter.
We believe that there is no absolute truth excepting the truth that there is no absolute truth.
We believe in the rejection of creeds, and the flowering of individual thought.
If chance be the Father of all flesh, disaster is his rainbow in the sky and when you hear
State of Emergency! Sniper Kills Ten! Troops on Rampage! Whites go Looting! Bomb Blasts School!
It is but the sound of man worshiping his maker.
Steve Turner, (English journalist), “Creed,” his satirical poem on the modern mind.
mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.
morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.
using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.
whatshallicallmyself
What is your point.
mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.
morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.
using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.
Kepler
Species do vanish, but they vanish as they appear. There is no transitional species. As to the new variety that appear, they way they are now is how appeared. Again no transitional.
mathematically measuring evolution.. when judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective.
morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.
using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish.
Caedes
Yes that is from Stephen Myers. Copied from a website wrong. Copied from his book yes. So I am guilty of not citing, As if the pro evolutionist in this discussion cite what they copy and paste. Either way that is a straw man argument. Why not address the topic instead of attacking character. Does something become untrue because it was copied?
