To ruby 456
and what about the effects of Plato on early Christianity. They didn't get everything from Judaism
And what would that be?
2 peter 1 = deity of christ.
2 pe.
1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .
To ruby 456
and what about the effects of Plato on early Christianity. They didn't get everything from Judaism
And what would that be?
2 peter 1 = deity of christ.
2 pe.
1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .
To Ruby 456
As Plato said when we come out of the cave by our own efforts we become divine - divinely enlightened - not otherworldly in any way but politically, philosophically and socially aware, edit: food for though eh. In the Republic he advocates aiming for the GOOD as an impersonal good - aiming for goodness in itself.
The logic of chance origins has driven society into rewriting the rules, so that utility has replaced duty, self expression has unseated authority, and being good has become feeling good.
Anything relative will always be subjective. If the meaning of X is being determined by a person or group then the significance of X is being determined by what is subjective, pragmatic or utilitarian. Romans considered Christians insignificant and fed them to the lions for entertainment. It was a utilitarian approach to meaning. It was more meaningful to entertain the crowd then to value one life. Outside of God there cannot be objective meaning.
At the Nuremberg trials, something very interesting came up. When the defendants were question as to why they committed the atrocities, they answered, ‘They were following the law of the land’. And they were. Within their society they broke no law. The prosecutor kept asking if there was a law above our laws.
You do not need God to live moral lives, you can recognize objective moral values and duties without believing in God, but the question is, do objective moral values and duties exist without God? Is not the necessity of belief in God for objective morality is the necessity of the existence of God for objective morality? Your belief in God is not necessary for objective morality, but God is.
Otherwise, everything is subjective, pragmatic or utilitarian.
2 peter 1 = deity of christ.
2 pe.
1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .
To Snowbird.
After questioning and unlearning what Christendom and WT taught about God.
When I left the organization I also became curious of other religions. But I followed some good advice. Judge religions by sizing up their originators. Compare Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus ect to each other. Who had the best answers to the questions of life, origin, purpose, value, destiny, ect.
One thing in noticed about religions, they agree when it pertains to how man relates to man, but always disagree how man pertains to the eternal or god. That they have the right path to a higher mode of existence, and everyone else does not.
What did i notice:= that Jesus is right, He is God. What took time was deprogramming what the WTS taught.
2 peter 1 = deity of christ.
2 pe.
1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .
To Crazy Guy
I believe this new religion Christianity was about introducing a new god to the masses. He was a highbread God with the attributes of many of the older gods of Egypt, Canaan and Greece. The newer god of those older religions like Osiris, Baal and Zues replaced thier fathers took on their attributes and were exalted above them. Jesus was to do the same. He was just like his father a representation of his father then later became one with his father in a trinity like so many of the other gods in Egypt and Mesopotamia.
Christianity was a new religion but an off shoot of Judaism. Since it was a continuation of an old religion it had to be in agreement with it. It is one thing to start a new religion from scratch, it is another to start a new movement that has to agree with 2000 plus years of history, philosophy, and prophecy to name a few.
If you don't think the trinity is a real Christian teaching the read about the meeting in 325 at Nicea. I have been to church and have heard Christian priest trying to explain it they can't but they believe it. Again it would be easy to explain if they just look at the triad gods of Egypt like Osiris, Isis and Horus. This is just one example. Anyway Jesus is really the god of the Christians and there are plenty of scriptures in the New Testament that state this.
Just because other cultures had triad gods, does not equate to the Christian copying this idea. Note in the OT God is addressed in plural form, God speaks of Himself in plural and singular form. This goes back to the beginning of Genesis, therefore when the question of copying comes up, one has to ask “Who copied who?”
I think it's only the JWs that focus on who they presume is the father and want to worship him alone this Jehovah. But whats funny is this Jehovah who really is this god. The Christians kept is vague not saying if it was RA or El or Chronos or Anu. They did this because they wanted all the people to worship Jesus not just Egyptians or just Greeks but everyone in the known world.
Did you read the account in Exodus where YHWH the God of Israel crushes all the Egyptian Gods? Cannot be the God crushing and the one being crushed at the same time.
Exodus 7 God turns water into blood.
Hapi, Osiris, Hatmehyt, Khnum
The Egyptians had a god of the Nile, named Hapi. Hapi was pictured as holding a table on which are vases and flowers and fruit. This was to show that Hapi was the source of all good gifts. The Egyptians had a "Hymn of the Nile" which has the phrase, "Thou art the Lord of the poor and the needy. If thou were overthrown in the heavens the gods would fall upon their faces and men would perish."
Osiris:
This miracle did indeed demonstrate the fall of Hapi. And it demonstrated the weakness of several other gods. While Hapi was the god of the Nile, the Egyptians had a god connected with water. His name was Osiris. He was thought to be the second most important god. According to the Egyptians, he had been murdered by his brother and then brought back to life by his son, Horus, by magic tricks. After this he was king of the blessed dead. When an Egyptian died, he thought he had to appear before Osiris. Osiris would decide if he was innocent of wrongdoing. If he was, then Osiris would let him enter into his kingdom. The water of the Nile was considered the life blood of Osiris. By God turning it to real blood, he was demonstrating that he was much more powerful than Osiris. Osiris needed the good water of the Nile to live. With the Nile water now blood, it represented horrible death instead of wonderful life.
Hatmehyt
The Egyptians also had a goddess named Hatmehyt . She was represented by the symbol of a fish. Many Egyptians wore fish medallions on chains around their necks as good luck charms. But she was shown to have no power. God had killed all the fish of the Nile.
Khnum
And there was the god who was a guardian of the Nile, Khnum. He obviously was not able to protect the Nile against the One True God. God had shown His power over three other Egyptian gods with this first plague. Took four out with one swing.
Frogs Exodus 8:1-16
Hekt, Khnum,
The Egyptians were very impressed with frogs. Each September, after the summer flooding by the Nile River, frogs would become very numerous in the small bodies of water left from the flooding. The Egyptians loved to hear the croaking of all of these frogs. It meant that the gods had done their duty and given the Egyptians enough water to make for a very fruitful next year.
The Egyptians believed the frog was the symbol of the life giving power goddess Hekt. She was the goddess who oversaw the women, the mid-wives, who helped women have babies. She was thought to blow the breath of life into the nostrils of the new babies. Her husband, Khnum, was the god who made the bodies of babies on the potter's wheel from the dust of the ground.
Hekt was represented in paintings as a woman with the head of a frog. She was so important that she is pictured in one place as helping the god Anubis rebuild the body of Osiris after the god Seth had killed him. So when the True God gave Moses and Aaron the power to bring forth frogs by the millions (Exodus 8:1-15), He was showing His power over Hekt. There were so many frogs that they were bringing destruction to the land. The frogs didn't just stay in the pools of water and the river. They jumped into the houses. They jumped in the beds. The Egyptians could not even cook because the frogs were in their ovens. No one could take a step without stepping on a frog.
Pharaoh asks Moses to pray to Jehovah to take away the frogs the next day. This is important. Because Pharaoh is already showing that he believes God is stronger than Hekt. Moses prays to God and the next day the frogs all die. The people gather the dead frogs into large piles. The whole land stinks from the dead frogs.
This was a further demonstration by God to tell the Egyptians that Hekt had no power. Instead of breathing life, the symbol of Hekt is dead and stinking up the land.
Lice Exodus 8:11-18
Seth :
The third plague which God empowers Moses and Aaron to bring on the Egyptians was lice. There has been much discussion for many years about what exactly these lice are. But the Greek version of the Old Testament (known as the Septuagint) uses the Greek word for louse so we must think that it is indeed lice.
The lice that Moses and Aaron bring forth cover the whole land. They are on men and their animals. (There are modern day stories of areas of Egypt having such large outbreaks of the camel tick, that the baby ticks in the sand actually make it look like the sand is alive.) This is like it was with the lice. In our text, Exodus 8:16-19, it says that all the dust of the land became lice.
The Egyptian priests tried to bring forth lice just like they had done with the frogs. But they could not do it. They said this must surely be the finger of God. This term is very important. The use an expression about the finger of a god had it's origin with the god Seth. Seth had fought against Horus for world domination (they wanted to rule the earth). "The finger of Seth" was the expression for this fight over power and rule. The same type of expression had come to be used for other Egyptian gods, such as Thoth who fought against the sun god Ra.
When the Egyptian priests said it was the "finger of God", they were admitting that the One True God was most powerful and he had dominion of the earth.
This plague of lice also was against the Egyptian priesthood itself. The ancient historian Herodotus tells us that the Egyptian priests shaved their bodies every other day to prevent lice and other impure things from adhering to their bodies. The bathed twice every day in cold water and twice each night. With the lice continually upon them, the Egyptian priests would not have been able to be "pure" for their service to their gods. This would also be a way of God showing them that he was more powerful than their gods.
Flies 8:20-32
Khepera
Pharaoh was still refusing to let the Israelites leave Egypt. So God had Moses meet Pharaoh early one morning. Moses told Pharaoh that God would bring flies upon all Egypt the next day. The entire land of Egypt would be filled with flies, except where the Israelites lived. The Israelites would be free of flies. This would show Pharaoh that they were God's people.
The next day swarms of flies came upon all the land of Egypt. The word for swarms can mean "all kinds of" or "mixture". This means all kinds of flies and probably includes the dog-fly which is common there. The dog-fly bites any exposed skin and is painful. The bite usually swells and hurts. The horse-fly would also be included. It has a very painful bite. And it is very probable that the beetle is included in the word used for "fly". The ancient historian Josephus said that they were included.
This plague was aimed at the Egyptian god Khepera. Khepera was represented as a beetle headed human. He was worshipped as the god of the resurrection (rising from the dead to go to heaven). The plague was also against another part of the Egyptians' religious belief. They believed that flies were involved in the process of getting to heaven. They wore ornaments of human-headed flies. These were supposed to help them get to heaven. And their "Book of the Dead" gives honor to the bird fly who was supposed to be able to bring a man to heaven. The flies would also make the Egyptians impure for their religious services.
Pharaoh almost gives in to this plague. He tells Moses that the Israelites may sacrifice in the land of Egypt. Moses, of course, knows this is not possible. Pharaoh then tells him to take them just out of the land. Moses tells him not to go back on his word. The next day God takes the flies away but Pharaoh changes his mind and does not let the Israelites leave.
Death of livestock Exodus 9:1-7.
Hathor and Ptah
Pharaoh had refused to let the Israelites leave Egypt even though God had brought four plagues on Egypt. God told Moses to tell Pharaoh that His hand was now going to be on the cattle, the horses, the asses, the camels, the herds and the flocks of the Egyptians. God would give them some kind of disease. To show that it was God who brought the disease, it would happen the next day and none of the Israelites animals would get the disease.
Just as God had said, all the animals got this disease. Many of the cattle died. The camels and horses were used to carry heavy loads. With them being sick, the Egyptians would have had to carry these loads themselves or just not take the loads where they needed to go. The Egyptians sacrificed animals to their gods. They would not be able to sacrifice these animals because they believed a diseased animal was impure. In the days of Egyptian rule, many times wealth was partly estimated by how many animals a person owned. The animals were used as money in transactions many times. When the cattle died, the Egyptians lost a great deal of wealth.
Most importantly, this plague showed God to be more powerful than some of the Egyptian gods. Hathor was the goddess of love, beauty, and joy. She was pictured as giving the pharaoh divine milk to drink. And, she was pictured as a cow. If the cows died, Hathor was sick and in trouble of dying herself. The Egyptians thought their beauty might fade away. And pharaoh would lose his godly food.
Ptah, the chief god of Memphis and considered the creator god, was symbolized by a live bull, known as the Apis bull. This bull also was believed to be the symbol of the River Nile. The Apis bull was cared for just as if he was a god. He was given special food, bathed and brushed daily, and even wore special clothes. When one died, he was mummified and buried just like a pharaoh. There is a tomb in Egypt with nothing but the burial chambers of these Apis bulls. It is estimated that it cost as much as $100,000 to bury one of these bulls. And when one died, the priests would search the entire land to find a calf which met the requirements to be the Apis bull.
With no Apis bull, the Egyptian god Ptah would seem to be very weak. He was supposed to be the creator god.
Boils Exodus 9:8-12
Typhon, Imhotep
Pharaoh was still not convinced that he should let the Israelites leave Egypt. So God told Moses and Aaron to take ashes from a furnace and throw them into the air. The ashes would cover the entire land of Egypt and cause very bad sores to appear on all the Egyptians and their animals. These sores would have infection in them and be very painful.
Moses and Aaron did as they were told. Moses took the ashes that he and Aaron picked up and threw them into the air. Sure enough, the ashes were taken throughout the land of Egypt and every Egyptian and every animal got the very painful and infected sores. The priests hurt so bad they could not even stand before Moses. But Pharaoh was not convinced to let the Israelites leave.
The Egyptians worshipped the god Typhon. Red bulls and very rarely even humans were sacrificed and burned on the grate of Typhon. The sacrifice was given the name Typhos. Then the ashes from the burned sacrifice was taken by the priests and thrown into the air. The Egyptians believed that if any of this ash fell on the skin of a living Egyptian, the person was safe from any defilement (anything that would cause the person to be physically ill and therefore spiritually unclean).
Moses and Aaron did not take the ashes from the furnace of Typhon. The furnace which they took their ashes from was one that the Israelites used to make the mud bricks for the buildings of the Egyptians (the word in the Hebrew is the word for that type furnace). God was showing the Egyptians and particularly Pharaoh that Typhon was powerless. He was showing them that simple ashes from the slave furnaces could be made to have more power by the One True God than ashes from their 'holy' furnaces.
Imhotep
The bad sores would again make the Egyptian priests unclean for their religious practices. This was also a way to show God's power against their god of learning and medicine, Imhotep. Imhotep had been a very wise man and architect many years before the time of Moses. He was regarded very highly when alive and when he died the Egyptians believed he became a god. Imhotep was unable to prevent illness to come upon the Egyptians. Imhotep's wisdom was nothing compared to God's wisdom.
Hail Exodus 9:13-35
Isis, Seth, Nut, Reshpu, Ketesh, Hathor ,Sepes, Shu, and Horus
God sent a very hard hail storm upon the land of Egypt. It is interesting that in Exodus 9:24 the word "grievous" used for the hail storm is the same word in the Hebrew translated "hard" in reference to Pharaoh's heart. This storm was the worst in the history of the land of Egypt. Hail does fall in Egypt but is never bad. Rarely is any damage done to crops. But this hail storm was different. Anyone or anything standing outside was killed. And all the trees were broken. And all the crops were destroyed.
The Egyptians believed that Isis and Seth took care of agricultural production. These two gods made sure that the harvest was plentiful. God showed that he was more powerful than them by destroying two very important crops--flax and barley.
Flax was used in the making of linen. Linen was the material of choice for clothing for most Egyptians. And the priests of Egypt were required to wear linen. They could not wear any other material. Destroying the flax meant that the priests would not have the linen necessary to make "holy" clothes for serving their gods. Also, hundreds of yards of linen were used to wrap the mummies. Without the linen the body could not be properly wrapped for burial. This may have been very serious later when the Pharaoh's first-born son dies and requires royal burial.
Barley was used in making bread. It was particularly used by the poor for this purpose. And barley was one of the main foods given to their animals. The hail not only took away most animals that would be used for food. It took away the grain that the surviving animals would eat. And it took away an important source of food for the people. The gods Seth and Isis were shown to be weak and powerless before the One True God.
The Egyptians worshipped Nut the sky goddess. She was sometimes represented as a woman without clothes stretched across the skies. Her fingers touched one horizon and her toes touched the other. At other times she was represented as a cow standing tall above the sky. People are seen as looking up to her for care and protection from the elements. Nut was also considered by the Egyptians to be the mother of five other gods: Osiris, Hathor, Set, Isis, and Nephthys. This plague of hail demonstrated that Nut had no power before the One True God. God controls the elements because He created them.
The gods Reshpu and Ketesh were also supposed to be involved with controlling the elements and they were shown to be false.
The Egyptians believed that Nut lived in trees. This plague destroyed many of the trees of the land of Egypt. Nut's home was destroyed. She had no where to live.
The gods Hathor and Sepes also lived in trees so they no longer had a place to live. The sun god Ra was believed to appear each morning from between two sycamore trees. The destroying of the trees would hinder Ra's appearing as the Egyptians thought it should be.
During this plague, you have to wonder: Where was Shu, the wind god? Where was Horus, the hawk-headed sky god of Upper Egypt?
Isis and Seth supposedly protected the crops, but the burned fields testified of their impotence. Although this plague would have caused widespread devastation, a few trees remained for the locusts of the next plague to devour.
Locust Exodus 10:1-19
Geb, Osiris and Min
Moses and Aaron once again come to Pharaoh to tell him to let the Israelites leave. They warn him that if he does not let them go that God will bring locusts into Egypt. This will be the worst locust invasion since Egypt had come into existence.
Pharaoh's servants beg him to allow the Israelites to leave. They now believe in the True God. Pharaoh still refuses. So Moses stretches out his hand holding his rod and a strong east wind begins to blow. It will blow for almost a full day and night. The next morning the locusts come.
Locusts can only fly for very long if there is a wind. These locusts must have come from a long distance for it to have taken 24 hours for them to get to Egypt (It has been shown that locusts can travel up to 15 miles per hour with a strong wind). This alone demonstrated to the Egyptians that God was over the world, not just over Egypt.
The locusts eat everything that was left by the hail. They eat every green plant. They eat all the fruit off of the trees. And they eat the leaves and bark of the trees (locusts have been known to even eat the wood). There are so many locusts that the ground cannot even be seen. The locusts completely cover the ground over all Egypt, except where the Israelites are.
Geb was the god of the earth. He is shown as a man with green skin representing the colors of life, the soil and plants. He many times had leaves on his skin. This plague of locusts had just eaten Geb. Geb had no more leaves. Geb instead of being bountiful with plant growth was completely without power. He had no plants of plenty to give to Egypt.
Osiris was a god of the earth and plants. He also was pictured as having green skin. He was considered as helping oversee the plant life. Osiris was also supposedly the god who brought civilization to Egypt. He taught them the art of agriculture. He also taught them how to worship all of the gods. Osiris was helpless before the One True God.
Another god hurt by the locusts was Min. Min was responsible for the growth forces of nature. One of the symbols associated with him was lettuce. At the harvest festivals, Pharaoh would go out in the fields and hoe under Min's watchful eye. The locusts left nothing to harvest. There would be no harvest festival this year. Min had been shown to have no power.
Darkness Exodus 10:21-29
Ra, Khepera, Aten, Aker
God now tells Moses to stretch his hand toward heaven. This would bring a great darkness on the land of Egypt. This darkness would even be felt. The word "felt" means "to grope." This could mean two different things about this plague.
It could mean that the darkness was so intense that a person would have to feel their way around their house. Have you ever been in a room when the light went out? You could not see anything and would have to feel your way along the wall or the floor to move around the room. There was no light of any kind to help see. It is possible this is what the Egyptians were dealing with. They did not leave their homes for three days due to the thick darkness (Exodus 10:21-29). There was no light from the sun or the moon or the stars.
God had demonstrated that he was more powerful than the sun god, Ra. Ra was the father of the gods. He made growth possible on the earth. He lived in a great heavenly boat that made a daily voyage across the sky. Ra could not show himself for three whole days.
Several other gods were also shown to be powerless before God.
Khepera was the god of the rising sun. He rolled the sun along the sky. He could not perform his task in the complete darkness from God.
Aten was the actual sun. He was depicted as a circle with his rays reaching down to earth. He was the nurturing spirit of the world. But he could do no nurturing and he could not send his rays of light and warmth.
Aker was believed to guard the gates of the dawn. He kept the gates free and open so that the sun could rise each morning. He was pictured as two lions sitting back to back with the sun sitting in the sky between them. The Egyptians would place these lions at their doors to guard their homes, tombs, and palaces from evil spirits. They called these statues "sphinxes".
Death of The First Born
Exodus 11-12
Meskhenet, Hathor, Min, Isis, Selket, and Renenutet. This tenth plague was potentially more devastating that all of the other plagues put together. This plague was also very selective—it destroyed only the Egyptians firstborn males, whether human or animal. God told Moses that, “About midnight I will go out into the midst of Egypt; and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the maidservant who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the beasts” (Exo. 11:4–5). The Israelites and the entire male population of the nation were to be exempt from this plague. This plague was too selective to merely be a childhood epidemic.
This plague was directed against “all of the gods of Egypt” (Exo. 12:12) and would show the total inability of the gods of Egypt to protect their subjects. In the face of unparalleled tragedy, “all of the gods of Egypt” were silent. Where was Meskhenet, the goddess who presided at the birth of children? Where was Hathor, one of the seven deities who attended the birth of children? Where was Min, the god of procreation? Where was Isis, the goddess of fertility? Where was Selket, the guardian of life? Where was Renenutet, the cobra-goddess and guardian of Pharaoh?
2 peter 1 = deity of christ.
2 pe.
1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .
To snowbird
How do you come to such a conclusion?
2 peter 1 = deity of christ.
2 pe.
1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .
To Snowbird
Why would it be henotheism?
2 peter 1 = deity of christ.
2 pe.
1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .
2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.
2 Pe. 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
Vs 1 Peter identifies Jesus as God and Savior, vs 2 Peter identifies Jesus independent of God.
Outside the Trinity we have polytheism.
interpret john 1:1 by john 1:1. .
the greek language has the definite article which has approximately thirty variations, is translated into english as “the”, and points to an identifiable personality, someone we have prior knowledge of.
but the greek language has no indefinite article corresponding to the english “a”, or “an”.
How do you view John 17:3 when compared with Jn 1:1?
interpret john 1:1 by john 1:1. .
the greek language has the definite article which has approximately thirty variations, is translated into english as “the”, and points to an identifiable personality, someone we have prior knowledge of.
but the greek language has no indefinite article corresponding to the english “a”, or “an”.
To Half banana
I needn’t remind you that the gospel of John abounds with references to overcoming death i.e. eternal life through JC. Why do you want to prevaricate on this?
This is your original statement.
Name me one person who has actually overcome death as promised in the Bible. Two thousand years, countless billions of people born and still no results yet!
There is a difference between ‘naming a person who has actually overcome death as promised in the Bible.’ Vs ‘overcoming death i.e. eternal life’.
Everyone with the exception of Enoch and Elijah, have died physically. With the exception of the rapture we are all going to die, the question is what happens next. We are all spiritual and eternal. Are we going to spend eternity in the presence of God or banished from God.
The first thing to realize when dealing with handwritten texts is that the human impulse to edit at each re-writing was almost irresistible. To imagine a divinely guided and protected sacred scripture is a religious fantasy.
Read again. New Testament 1 century AD [50-100], earliest copy 2 century AD [100-130] number of copies from antiquity 5000, accuracy 99%, partial manuscripts 19000, quotations by the early church fathers 86000.
Notice the amount of material there is to compare. Nothing in antiquity even comes close to the number of copies or partial copies. The idea that the text was manipulated over time is proven wrong by the fact that the material from antiquity is 99% in agreement with each other and with modern translations. The 1% is mainly the pronunciation of names of individuals or locations.
You can see the process at work in the Gospels to which Doug Mason refers. As he said, Mark’s writings are the earliest and over time and with geographical distance between them, they were elaborated on. Note how the story of three wise men with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh were added to the later gospels. Here is where imagination becomes fact.
Read
the account in Matthew, and you will notice that Matthew never mentions “three
wise men” but “magi” from the east.
Now for the facts about the magi. Something I wrote a couple of years ago.
The information that we do have comes from history, from the book of Daniel, and the Gospel of Matthew, of which Matthew is limited. Putting the pieces together using Matthew, Daniel, and other historians we learn the following:
They were members of an eastern priestly group which were decedents of a tribe that belonged to the Medes. They were part of the Medo - Persian Empire that conquered the Babylonian Empire who in turn was conquered by the Greeks, who was in turn conquered by the Romans.
The word 'wise' and 'magic' comes from 'Magi' which is an untranslatable word, it being the name of the tribe they originated from. They were a pagan priestly line among the Medes, involved in astronomy, astrology, medicine, math, the sciences and sorcery.
During the Babylonian exile of the Jews the Magi came under the influence of the Jews living in Babylon. According to the book of Daniel, [5:11, 29] Daniel was put in charge of the Magi, having a great influence on them, especially regarding Jewish messianic prophecy. Over the next 600 years some Magi believed in pagan gods and some remain loyal to Daniel’s God and looking forward to the coming of Daniel’s Messiah.
From the Babylonian to Roman Empires the Magi were prominent and powerful in government. In Daniel we read that Nebuchadnezzar appointed the Magi as advisors to the people and later during the Medo Persian, Greek and Roman Empires they operated as advisors to the Eastern kings, thus called 'wise men'. In the political landscape of the time the Romans controlled the west and the Parthians controlled the east. In the Parthian Empire there existed a ruling house called the Megistanes composed of Magi which had absolute choice in the selection of the king. The new king had to be approved by the Magi, and master the scientific and religious discipline of the Magi. The wisdom of the Magi was known as the Law of the Medes and the Persians. In the Parthian empire they controlled the judicial and the royal office of government. They were the king makers.
During Herod’s reign the Parthian rulers wanted war with Rome. Standing in opposition was their king Phraates IV who did not have the heart to fight, he was deposed and the Magi were looking for a new king and Herod knew this. They were the king makers looking for new king.
Herod’s title was king of the Jews given to him by Caesar Augustus. The objective of Herod's life was to get his little buffer state under control. Herod’s kingdom laid between two super powers the Romans in the west and the Parthians in the east. At this time Herod was close to death, Augustus was old, and Tiberius retired. The time was right for the East to start a war with the west, and Herod knew this, compounded by the fact that earlier conflict between the Romans and the Parthians were fought along the coast of the Mediterranean in the area of Israel and Syria.
These king makers rode into Jerusalem not on camels but on steeds accompanied by a contingent of approximately 1000 cavalry asking for the King of the Jews. When Herod heard that Parthian Magi king makers came into Jerusalem looking for a king, Herod was troubled. The king makers that deposed Phraates IV were in Jerusalem looking for the one born King of the Jews.
After Daniel many Magis took different roads worshiping false gods, but there was a remnant that still believed in the One True God. Somehow God kept truth seeking Magi, king makers in the Persian Empire waiting for the Messiah to appear.
The saviour story had been knocking around for millennia before the first century CE. Variations on the same theme of a miracle god-man saviour with twelve disciples curing the sick and raising the dead and dying at Easter was a religious trope from ancient Egypt and dispersed throughout the near east including India. This colourful and clearly exotic tale was part of the Mithraic cult which came from Persia and more significantly applied to the virgin birth of the saviour Mithra (or Mithras as the Romans called him) about three or four centuries before the Gospels were written.
Let’s ask the expert.
The following is from an interview with Edwin M. Yamauchi, PH.D. who has a doctorate in Mediterranean studies from Brandeis University, and having taught at Miami University of Ohio for more than thirty five years. Yamauchi has studied twenty two languages, including Akkadian, Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, Chinese, Comanche, Coptic, Egyptian, Mandaic, Syriac, and Ugaritic. He received eight fellowships from Brandeis, Rutgers, and elsewhere, delivered eighty eight papers on Mithraism, Gnosticism, and other topics at scholarly societies, published over two hundred articles and reviews in professional journal, lectured at more than one hundred colleges and universities. His seventeen books include the 578 page authoritative tome ‘Persia and the Bible’ which includes his findings on Mithraism, as well as Greece and Babylon, Gnostic Ethics and Mandaean Origins, The Stones and the Scriptures, Pre-Christian Gnosticism, the Archaeology of the New Testament, and The World of the First Christians.
Mithras vs. Jesus
Was Mithras born of a virgin?
“No, that definitely not true, he was born out of a rock. Yes, the rock birth is commonly depicted in Mithraic beliefs. Mithras emerges fully grown and naked except for a Phrygian cap, and he is holding a dagger and torch. In some variations, flames shoot out from the rock, or he is holding a globe in his hand.”
Birth in a cave:
“Well, it is true that Mithraic sanctuaries were designed to look like caves. Nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus described as having been born in a cave. This idea is first mentioned in the letter of Barnabas at the beginning of the second century. This tradition does not come from a dependency on Mithraism, but rather from an ages old tradition in Palestine itself of holy shrines in caves. There is no doubt that the Christian tradition does not stem from the Mithraic account.”
Jesus and Mithras born on Dec. 25.
“Again not a parallel, because we don’t know the date Jesus was born. The earliest date celebrated by Christians was Jan. 6. In fact it is still celebrated by many churches in the East. Of course, Dec. 25 is very close to the winter solstice. This was the date chosen by the emperor Aurelian for the dedication of his temple to Sol Invictus, the god call the ‘Unconquerable Sun.’ Mithras was closely associated with Sol Invictus; sometimes they are depicted shaking hands. This is apparently how Mithras became associated with Dec.25.
When did Dec. 25 become Christmas for Christians?
“That seems to be in 336, a year before the death of Constantine, the first Roman emperor to embrace Christianity. We know that before his conversion, he worshiped Sol Invictus. We know for sure that Constantine made Sunday, or the Lord’s Day an official holiday, even though Christians had already been observing it as the day on which Jesus was resurrected. So it is conceivable Constantine also may have appropriated Dec. 25 for the birthday of Christ. We know that Christian emperors and popes suggested that instead of simply banning pagan ceremonies that they appropriate them for Christianity.”
Was Mithras a great traveler or maser with twelve disciples?
“No, he was a god not a teacher.”
Did Mithras promise his followers immortality?
“Well, that can be inferred, by certainly that was the hope of most followers of any religion. So that is not surprising.”
Did Mithras sacrifice himself for world peace?
“That is reading Christian theology into what is not there. He did not sacrifice himself he killed a bull.”
Was Mithras buried in a tomb and rose after three days?
“We don’t know anything about the death of Mithras. We have a lot of monuments, but we have almost no textual evidence, because this was a secret religion. But I know of no references to a supposed death and resurrection.”
Was Mithras considered the Good Shepherd, The Way, the Truth, and the Life, the Logos, the Redeemer, the Savior?
“No, again that is reading Christian theology into this.”
Was there a sacramental meal in Mithraism that paralleled the Lord’s Supper?
“Common meals are found in almost all religious comminutes, what is noteworthy is that the Christian apologist Justin Martyr and Tertullian point out the similarities to the Lord’s Super, but they wrote in the second century, long after the Lord’s Supper was instituted in Christianity. They claimed the Mithraic meal was a satanic imitation. Clearly, the Christian meal was based on the Passover, not on a mystery religion. According to Clauss’s book, ‘The Roman Cult of Mithras’, ‘The ritual meal was probably simply a component of regular common meals. Such meals have always been an essential part of religious assembly; eating and drinking together creates community and renders visible the fact that those who take part are members of one and the same group.’ The Christian sacrament is rooted in the Jewish tradition of the Passover feast and the specifically historical recollection of Jesus’ last acts, while Mithraic feast has its origins in Mazdean [Persian] ceremonies.
Other scholars’ comments.
Manfred Clauss, professor of ancient history at Free University in Berlin, said in ‘The Roman cult of Mithras’, “That it does not make sense to interpret the Mithraic mysteries as a fore-runner of Christianity.
Press L. Patterson in his “Mithraism and Christianity” [Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1921], 94. “There is no direct connection between the two religions either in origin or development.”
Gary Lease, professor of religious studies at the University of California at Santa Cruz and long time executive secretary of the North American Association for the Study of Religion, who earned his doctorate at the University of Munich and later occupied its renowned Romano Guardini chair for Theory of Culture and Religion states, “After almost 100 years of unremitting labor, the conclusion appears inescapable that neither Mithraism nor Christianity proved to be an obvious and direct influence upon each other in the development and demise or survival of either religion. Their beliefs and practices are well accounted for by their most obvious origins and there is no need to explain one in term of the other.
I must contradict your assumption that Jesus actually lived and died. Outside of the highly biased gospels there is no incontrovertible secular corroboration that the saviour god-man Jesus ever breathed.
Josephus 1 century Jewish historian and servant of Titus and his father Vespasian, wrote the following while discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
Cornelius Tactitus {54 AD -117AD] Annals 15.44 [Some words adjusted to modern English for clarity].
But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiation of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Chrestians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most destructive superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in the capital, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of setting fire to the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.
Pliny the Younger was a lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome 61-113 AD
In a letter he wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan around 112 AD.
“They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god,”
As to the rest of your post claiming that scripture was changed over time to fit beliefs, this is nothing new. It has been a long time claim that Christians wrote Jesus back into the OT over the centuries. Note at the time the oldest copy of the OT was approx. 9 century AD. This was proven wrong with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls [written 2 century BC to century AD] found in 1946, 47. Among the material found was a complete copy of Isaiah, when compared to the modern copy it was 99% accurate. Jesus was not written back into the OT but the verses were true to the original now as they were when the Dead Sea Scrolls were written.
May I suggest you read. "The Case For The Real Jesus." by Lee Strobel
Good luck
TWM
interpret john 1:1 by john 1:1. .
the greek language has the definite article which has approximately thirty variations, is translated into english as “the”, and points to an identifiable personality, someone we have prior knowledge of.
but the greek language has no indefinite article corresponding to the english “a”, or “an”.
To Doug Mason
Well done, in all the years I have discussed John 1 a chiasm never came up. It is a bit ambiguous but I do see it there. I also agree that each Gospel had a target audience in mind. Matthew to the Jew, Luke to the Gentiles, Mark to the Christians in Rome, and John to the Jew and Greek. I also agree they contain topics that were pertinent to the community it was addressed to. Now after understanding the backdrop to which the gospels were written, we can take the lessons learned or taught and apply them to us. They might not be written as theological treatise but they do touch enough on the subject matter that we can learn and apply from them.