Posts by towerwatchman

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Rainbow Troll

Empirically speaking, theism could never be totally refuted since, as you pointed out, no one is omniscient.
However, putting that aside for a moment, there are certain logical reasons that the theist God could not exist. Some of the attributes of this alleged being are impossible. Take omnipotence as an example. Is God able to create something indestructible, that not even he could destroy or uncreate? Whether you answer yes or no, his omnipotence is refuted. Or what about his omniscience? Can the theist God ask a question that even he can't answer? If he can, he is not omniscient. If he cannot, he is not omnipotent.

Yes or no are both wrong answers. Why limit my choices to two only?

Same as can God create a rock so big He cannot carry it.

If something is self-contradicting it is absolutely impossible. The absolutely impossible may also be called the intrinsically impossible because it carries its impossibility within itself, instead of borrowing it from other impossibilities which in their turn depend upon others. It has no “unless” clause attached to it. It is impossible under all conditions and in all worlds and for all agents.

All agents here include God Himself. His Omniscience means having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight and always possessing universal or complete knowledge, therefore as it applies to us, knew exactly how He was going to create us and all the possible choices we make and the outcomes before He created us. You may attribute miracles to God but not nonsense. Yes there is no limit to His knowledge. If you chose to say “God can gives you free will to choose and at the same time say that God knew exactly what choice you will make from your birth to your death, before you were born, you have succeeded in saying nothing about God, because meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words “God can”. It remains true that all things are possible with God, the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities.

It is impossible for God to carry out both mutually exclusive alternatives, not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

Is God omnibenevolent; a being of pure love? But who could he have loved before he created the Son and with him everyone else?

Suggest you brush up on your knowledge of Christianity. The Father , Son, and HS are all eternal beings.

More importantly, if this God was all alone in the beginning, how could he have developed a language that would have allowed him to conceptualize, reason and so be capable of creating a universe? Language is a social phenomena. A single, eternal God could not develop a language and without language, conceptual thought, reasoning, mathematics - everything this God would need to create anything - would be impossible for him.

Why, again following Christianity God the Son spoke creation into being. We as humans communicate via language. Why would an all powerful being be limited to language in order to communicate? To communicate one does not need a language but a means of exchanging and expressing ideas.

Did God create the Universe - the universe being defined mathematically as the set of all things existing in space-time? But space-time itself defines existence. A being that that created space-time would have to exist outside of it and therefore, would ipso facto not exist.

Why?

The second law of thermodynamics states that the universe had a beginning. Cause and effect states that everything that begins to exist owes its existence to something prior. Role it back to that point of singularity when the first effect came into existence. Question what is the cause?

The cause of the universe therefore must be a transcendent cause beyond the universe. It must be itself uncaused, because we have seen that an infinite series of causes is impossible. It must transcend space and time, since it created space and time, therefore it must be immaterial and nonphysical. And must be unimaginably powerful since it created all matter and energy and finally and must be a personal being, only a mind could fit the above description of the first cause. And it must be a personal being, because this is the only way to explain how a timeless cause can produce a temporal effect with a beginning like the universe. If the cause is impersonal and sufficient to produce its effect, then if the effect is there the cause must be there also.

Now if the cause of the universe is permanently there and is timeless, why isn't the universe permanently there as well, why did the universe come into being, why isn't it as permanent as its cause? The answer to the problem must be that the clause is a personal being with free will, therefore His act of creating the universe is independent of any prior conditions; something spontaneous and new.

You see, even though I may never be able to disprove theism using the scientific/empirical method, I can easily refute it using logic alone.

Did not even come close.

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Scratchme 1010

What a load of crap. Atheism doesn't "denounce" anything. Again, this seems to be based on the premises that (a) Atheists are an organization like the ones theists join, (b) all atheists are somehow united in the same way of thinking as the WT brainwashes people to be, (c) atheists compare notes, get instructions or are aligned with each other and believe the exact same thing (d) atheists are "against" or "anti" something, or (e) we simply refuse to listen to anything other than what reinforces what they believe. All that is just nonsense.

Should take a look at the name on the banner. A-theist

A= against, negative, Theist = God in any form.

Seem to all fit.

Sweetie, it is very simple. We don't need to prove the non existence of God, we don't need to prove anything to you, and for that we don't need a bible, nor a congregation, and certainly not "unlimited knowledge of the universe", whatever that means, anyway to feel confident in pour non-believes. Get over it.

Read the OP, never claimed that Atheist had to prove anything, it is what Atheist claimed by the name they choose.

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Saethydd

Theism is guilty of what you are accusing Atheism of doing.

Need to elaborate.

Theists tend to argue that God is necessary because intelligent life must have an innate purpose and/or creator. How can you know that humans aren't simply the first intelligent beings in this chain of purpose? At least humans can be proven to exist with a relative degree of certainty.

The second law of thermodynamics states that the universe had a beginning. Cause and effect states that everything that begins to exist owes its existence to something prior. Role it back to that point of singularity when the first effect came into existence. Question what is the cause?

The cause of the universe therefore must be a transcendent cause beyond the universe. It must be itself uncaused, because we have seen that an infinite series of causes is impossible. It must transcend space and time, since it created space and time, therefore it must be immaterial and nonphysical. And must be unimaginably powerful since it created all matter and energy and finally and must be a personal being, only a mind could fit the above description of the first cause. And it must be a personal being, because this is the only way to explain how a timeless cause can produce a temporal effect with a beginning like the universe. If the cause is impersonal and sufficient to produce its effect, then if the effect is there the cause must be there also.

Now if the cause of the universe is permanently there and is timeless, why isn't the universe permanently there as well, why did the universe come into being, why isn't it as permanent as its cause? The answer to the problem must be that the clause is a personal being with free will, therefore His act of creating the universe is independent of any prior conditions; something spontaneous and new.

However, God, if he existed, would be an intelligent being which has no innate purpose and/or creator, rather, he is to have decided his own purpose after spending an eternity doing... something. Talking to himself perhaps.

Why does God have to have a purpose? Is there some rule that must be followed?

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

To Village idiot.

Let’s test your statement.

Point to any cognitive being that claims to be a unicorn or espouses and promotes the unicorn worldview?

Point to any cognitive being that claims to be an Atheist or espouses and promotes the Ateist worldview?

Seem to live up to your name.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

towerwatchman

cofty

Slavery

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another. - Lev.25:44

If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property. - Ex.21:20

And we shall repeat.

Owning somebody as property.

Not that simple, in ancient times there was no welfare programs for the needy. People either sold themselves or their family into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure, they basically exchanged labor for food and housing. Notice the rules in the Bible about slavery are there to protect the slave.

Killing a slave punishable up to death.

"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished." (Exodus 21:20)

"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth." (Exodus 21:26-27)

"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:12)

No work on the Sabbath.

"Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves. (Exodus 23:12)

Slander a slave

Do not slander a slave to his master, Or he will curse you and you will be found guilty. (Proverbs 30:10l

Have sex with another man's slave,

Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free. (Leviticus 19:20)

Return an escaped slave.

"You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. (Deuteronomy 23:15)

A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in 7 years or in the year of jubilee (which occurred every 50 years), whichever came first.

'If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave's service. 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers. 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale. 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God. (Leviticus 25:39-43)

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2)

The slave owner was encouraged to "pamper his slave".

He who pampers his slave from childhood Will in the end find him to be a son. (Proverbs 29:21)

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

towerwatchman

Cofty

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man... Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community... The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was.. 32,000 women who had never slept with a man. - Num.31:18

Your post claims sex slaves, nothing here supports that. We call this taking verses in isolation. I can take any verse, keep it in isolation, and apply any twist to it. And this is what you are doing. God punished these people for inviting Israel to worship their gods. Read Num 25. God punished them, He used Israel as His instrument of punishment. What I find interesting is no one argues against Noah’s flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah where God killed everyone, but they argue against this, why? God used Israel as His instrument to dispense His justice, so that Israel and anyone that reads the accounts can see the real and ugly result of sin.

BTW the ‘virgins’ were kept alive and absorbed into Israel by marriage.

When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. - Deut.21:11

BTW why would it matter to an Atheist that someone has a sex slave. It does not matter now, why should it matter then? Everyone wants to jump on the “Sex slave trafficking” wagon, on one end and support the industry that fuels the appetite. America’s greatest export is pornography, which fuels the appetite, which claims protection under the First Amendment. Without an objective source how does the Atheist address this dilemma ?

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

towerwatchman

To Rebel

I understand your position. i once was ;part of the organization also. What I noticed was, it was not God that let me down by the WTS. The Bible makes sense, the WTS does not. Again judge a movement by its originator and not by its followers. Does the WTS follow the teaching of Jesus or went against it. If the actions of the WTS are a logical outworking of Christianity, then give Christianity up, but if the WTS goes against Jesus' teachings then give up the WTS and embrace Jesus.

315

Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman in

atheism = self defeating.

first may we define our terms.

the word atheism comes literally from the greek, alpha the negative and theos [for god], therefore “negative god” or there is no god.

towerwatchman

Atheism = self defeating.

First may we define our terms. The word Atheism comes literally from the Greek, alpha the negative and theos [for God], therefore “negative God” or there is no God. It is not saying, “I do not think or believe there is a God”, rather it affirms the non existence of God. It affirms a negative in the absolute. Anyone who took philosophy 101 knows you cannot affirm a negative in the absolute. It is a logical contradiction. Therefore it is self defeating. It also breaks the rule of non contradiction by ascribing to itself a divine attribute while at the same time denying the existence of the Divine. Atheism not only denounces the existence of God, but by its own definition denounces the principle by which it criticizes the reality of God. To make an absolute statement in the negative is similar to saying that nowhere in the universe does there exist a flying spaghetti monster. For the atheist to make such a claim he must have unlimited knowledge of this universe. What the atheist is fundamentally saying is that he has infinite knowledge of this universe to affirm that there exist no being with infinite knowledge. It is self defeating.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

towerwatchman

To cofty

Re TTWSYF

You have all your work ahead of you to explain why christianity is true. You might persuade me it is useful but certainly not true. Atheism is nothing more than the honest confession that the claims of christianity are unconvincing. Science, rationality and humanism is responsible for all of the progress in society since the Enlightenment. Religion had centuries and failed. The hungry are being fed, the sick are being cured and its all thanks to abandoning old superstitions.

Cofty you seem to be an atheist and naturalist. Now let’s put atheism and naturalism under the microscope.

First may we define our terms. The word Atheism comes literally from the Greek, alpha the negative and theos [for God], therefore “negative God” or there is no God. It is not saying, “I do not think or believe there is a God”, rather it affirms the non existence of God. It affirms a negative in the absolute. Anyone who took philosophy 101 knows you cannot affirm a negative in the absolute. It is a logical contradiction. Therefore it is self defeating. It also breaks the rule of non contradiction by ascribing to itself a divine attribute while at the same time denying the existence of the Divine. Atheism not only denounces the existence of God, but by its own definition denounces the principle by which it criticizes the reality of God. To make an absolute statement in the negative is similar to saying that nowhere in the universe does there exist a flying spaghetti monster. For the atheist to make such a claim he must have unlimited knowledge of this universe. What the atheist is fundamentally saying is that he has infinite knowledge of this universe to affirm that there exist no being with infinite knowledge. It is self defeating.

You are better off taking the position of Agnostic.

But let’s continue.

A purely naturalistic account of morality.

Socially inclined individuals beget other socially inclined individuals the younger generation is equally likely to pass on those same traits, and so on.

If morals evolved over time then we cannot have any confidence in them because evolution aims not at truth but at survival, therefore the morals would have been selected on either pragmatic or utilitarian bases, because that view aims at survival and not truth.

Morality is ultimately the result of an implicit agreement among civilized people.

When Trog want something Og have, Trog hit Og on head and take it. When Og want thing back, Og get big club, hit Trog on head, and take thing back. Og take things too. After much thinking Trog and Og sit down and forge an agreement. Trog and Og agree to stop swinging their clubs at each other’s head, for the liberties, such as the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Trog and Og will be motivated to keep the terms of their agreement only as long as they believe that doing so is ultimately what serves their interest. When it serves Og’s interest he will hit Trog overhead again. There is no ‘ought’ in the agreement. No moral obligation. If there is no immortality then all things are permitted. There is no objective reason why man should be moral unless morality pays off in his social life or makes him feel good. If there is no God, then there is no objective standard of right and wrong.

Meaning of Life.

If each individual person passes out of existence when he dies, then what ultimate meaning can be given to his life?

Mankind is thus no more significant that swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs, for their end is all the same.

The same blind cosmic process that coughed them up in the first place will eventually swallow them all again.

Since modern man ends in nothing, he is nothing.

Man needs more than just immortality for life to be meaningful. Mere duration of existence does not make that existence meaningful. If man and the universe could exist forever, but if there was no God, their existence would still have no ultimate significance. Life can go on and on and still be utterly without meaning. It is not immortality man needs if life is to be ultimately significant; he needs God and immortality. Thus if there is no God, then life itself becomes meaningless. Man and the universe are without ultimate significance.

DESTINY

If life ends at the grave, your destiny is ultimately unrelated to your behavior, you may as well just live as you please.

There is nothing special about human beings. They are just accidental by products of nature that have evolved relatively recently on an infinitesimal speck of dust call the planet Earth, lost somewhere in a hostile and mindless universe, and which are doomed to perish individually and collectively in a relatively short time.

PURPOSE

We are here for no purpose. If there is no God, then your life is not qualitatively different from that of an animal. “There is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

All go to the same place. All come from the dust and all return to the dust.” Eccl 3:19-20.

Without God the universe is the result of a cosmic accident, a chance explosion. There is no reason for which it exists.

Man is a freak of nature a blind product of matter plus time plus chance, a miscarriage of nature, thrust into a purposeless universe to live a purposeless life.

Since this is your worldview, why are you arguing morals, according to your worldview man is nothing but the result of time plus slime, with no significant value. Man came from nothing, is returning to nothing, therefore is nothing. So why care if someone owns slaves, or kills children, More people were killed in the 20 century in the name of atheism and naturalism than in all the centuries Christianity existed. What is the difference? The Christian atrocities go against the teachings of Jesus, the atheist atrocities are a logical outworking of its worldview. Being an atheist and naturalist why do you care? According to your worldview all those little children that Hitler gassed were nothing more than accidental byproducts of nature.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

towerwatchman

To Cofty

There were two separate sets of laws regarding slavery. Those that you referred to involve fellow Israelites. I am not objecting to that arrangement in this thread. I am only concerned with god's commands to take slaves as permanent possessions from non-Israelite nations.
An Israelite was instructed to take slaves by force. To own them as part of their personal possessions. To pass them on as part of their estate. If the save owner beat the slave to death there was no punishment as long as the slave did not die on the same day. The justification for this cruelty was the according to god "no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."
God also instructed Israelite soldiers to kidnap sex slaves. These young virgins had no choice but to be married of to their captors.
During their campaigns god also instructed his army to specifically target women and babies to be hacked to death after the enemy army had been defeated.

At this point you should back up your statements with scripture. Seems you have become an expert in the ancient Hebrew practice of slavery that the verses should be no problem for you. In Academia the one that presents is the one responsible for the research.

The deity who did these things was the god and father of Jesus.

Wrong, according to Jesus no one has seen or heard the Father, so it was either the HS or Jesus.