Hi Luther, thanks for the input.
This incident occurred while Knorr was in his prime, It is possible that the illness was there at that time but during his tenure he took some decisions that showed a very vindictive personality.
Regards
Posts by Hecce
-
25What kind of person was Nathan H. Knorr?
by Hecce inwe have several examples in the forum showing that president knorr was not a loving and caring person; one that impressed me was the one about the elderly bethelite that was put out on the streets until his death due to a disagreement with knorr.
i bring to your attention an incident that happened in the country of honduras back in the 50s, it has to do with immoral conduct by a branch overseer and his subsequent disfellowshiping.
i am not critical of the end result of his conduct but rather the salacious and detailed report of this matter putting in the open the details for the whole world to see.
-
-
-
25
What kind of person was Nathan H. Knorr?
by Hecce inwe have several examples in the forum showing that president knorr was not a loving and caring person; one that impressed me was the one about the elderly bethelite that was put out on the streets until his death due to a disagreement with knorr.
i bring to your attention an incident that happened in the country of honduras back in the 50s, it has to do with immoral conduct by a branch overseer and his subsequent disfellowshiping.
i am not critical of the end result of his conduct but rather the salacious and detailed report of this matter putting in the open the details for the whole world to see.
-
-
Hecce
We have several examples in the forum showing that President Knorr was not a loving and caring person; one that impressed me was the one about the elderly Bethelite that was put out on the streets until his death due to a disagreement with Knorr.
I bring to your attention an incident that happened in the country of Honduras back in the 50s, it has to do with immoral conduct by a Branch Overseer and his subsequent disfellowshiping. I am not critical of the end result of his conduct but rather the salacious and detailed report of this matter putting in the open the details for the whole world to see.
While making this assertion I am thinking about the relatives of this man, his father was a DO, his brother was at that time a CO and eventually a DO; the wife was from a very spiritual family and she herself was an outstanding Christian. It seems that Knorr took like in some other instances this matter very personally and he promised that as long as he was President he was not going to be reinstated.
This was a promise that he couldn’t keep and it took about 10 years but the man was eventually reinstated, as years went by and this blemish was getting smaller he started getting some privileges and he rose to the point that after like 30 years he became a CO and then DO until his death.
I don’t condone what this man did and most certainly he deserved harsh discipline, but I question whether it was needed to put all the salacious details out in the open in a Watchtower article.
Here is the information for your consideration:
The Watchtower July 15, 1955 Page 430:
The brothers saw results from the assembly, because their January report showed 104 engaging in preaching this good news of the Kingdom throughout all of British Honduras. HONDURAS Two days before President Knorr’s arrival in Honduras the constitutional government had fallen. The political situation was tense.
Also, a very grave situation had developed within the congregation of Jehovah’s witnesses itself. Brother Knorr would have to appoint a new branch servant because the one formerly in charge had disqualified himself and he was therefore disfellowshiped.
Here for Jehovah’s people there was tension within and without. For the past four years Jehovah’s witnesses had been blessed and many were being gathered into the New World society. In 1950 there were 208 publishers in the country and by the time the service year of 1954 had closed there was an average of 410.
The missionaries along with the local publishers had done well, but when corruption was found within the organization it disturbed some of the weaker ones, as they were looking to mem rather than to Jehovah God. In checking the February, 1955, report it is found that there are now only 392 publishers, a decrease from the 1954 average and far below the peak of 460 publishers in April, 1954. It will take hard work on the part of the missionaries and other mature brothers in the congregation to aid, strengthen and bring on to maturity those who once had taken a stand for the Kingdom.
Those who corrupt Jehovah’s organization by immoral living have something to answer for before Jehovah God. A little sister reported the misconduct of the branch servant to one of the missionaries. It was this information that led to the uncovering of the scandal that had B r o o k l y n , N . Y . corrupted the local organization. This girl had told how she had seen the branch servant, a married man, making regular calls at the one-room house of a prostitute. It was hard for the missionary to believe the report. So then she wanted to see with her own eyes. She did, and she reported the matter to some brothers, missionaries, and for several days the branch servant was watched and his conduct checked. Some days he made as many as three calls to see this girl of ill fame. Sometimes he would take her to the theater.
The matter was then reported to the president’s office and instructions were sent out to make a very thorough check and to have a sufficient number of witnesses watch this man’s actions. Even the branch servant’s wife was invited to go along on a back-call near the harlot’s home so she too could see exactly what her husband was doing before the charges were presented to him and disfellowshiping would take place.
The Society’s president had given instructions for the man to have a fair hearing, but from the very start he tried to lie his way out. He even said he had not gone to the place. But there were a sufficient number of witnesses who were wholly devoted to Jehovah God observing daily what had taken place and in the face of all of his lies the man was disfellowshiped.
If a person wants to live as the world lives, then let him stay in the world. When we find men in the organization like those Jude described—“ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ” —then they should be removed from the organization, and quickly.—Jude 4, NW. -
143
Fidel Castro and the WT
by Hecce ini am going to engage on a trip to the past and share with you some of the matters that marked the beginning of the jws persecution in cuba.
you will be surprised that the pattern that was followed is very similar to what happened in other dictatorial countries.. in the cuban case, i am going to surprise you and tell you that like what happened with hitler; the wt was partially responsible for their clash and confrontation with the cuban government.
during the early 60s the revolution was fighting for survival and they were willing and ready to demolish any perceived enemy to their cause.. a prime example was their war against the catholic church that was the most influential religious entity in the country; it took the supreme leader only a few public discourses to send the vast majority of clergy packing and back to their country, in this case spain.. the jehovah’s witnesses were an insignificant minority but they over estimated their importance and displayed a belligerent attitude, it was known that this was a us based religion and an easy target to connect them with the cia.
-
-
Hecce
Later on I will input some information about the negotiations in the 90s between the Government and the WT that resulted in the relaxation of the persecution against the brothers. -
143
Fidel Castro and the WT
by Hecce ini am going to engage on a trip to the past and share with you some of the matters that marked the beginning of the jws persecution in cuba.
you will be surprised that the pattern that was followed is very similar to what happened in other dictatorial countries.. in the cuban case, i am going to surprise you and tell you that like what happened with hitler; the wt was partially responsible for their clash and confrontation with the cuban government.
during the early 60s the revolution was fighting for survival and they were willing and ready to demolish any perceived enemy to their cause.. a prime example was their war against the catholic church that was the most influential religious entity in the country; it took the supreme leader only a few public discourses to send the vast majority of clergy packing and back to their country, in this case spain.. the jehovah’s witnesses were an insignificant minority but they over estimated their importance and displayed a belligerent attitude, it was known that this was a us based religion and an easy target to connect them with the cia.
-
-
Hecce
Jwfacts
As you can see I am not ready to post my picture yet, with regards to the past this is the result of my personal experiences. More current information comes from relatives and friends still close to the situation. Incidentally, the majority of friends mentioned by name have already departed.
-
14
Baptised younger
by Sabin inso why do you think the borg is encouraging youngsters to get dunked sooner?
i reckon it's cause they are easy to victimise.
i mean, some-one could say, keep our secret, nobody will believe you & god wont love you, but think of the power they would have if they say "you will be disfellowshipped," on top.
-
-
Hecce
My feeling is that at some point "Caesar" is going to get involved in this form of servitude or slavery for the younger ones. -
143
Fidel Castro and the WT
by Hecce ini am going to engage on a trip to the past and share with you some of the matters that marked the beginning of the jws persecution in cuba.
you will be surprised that the pattern that was followed is very similar to what happened in other dictatorial countries.. in the cuban case, i am going to surprise you and tell you that like what happened with hitler; the wt was partially responsible for their clash and confrontation with the cuban government.
during the early 60s the revolution was fighting for survival and they were willing and ready to demolish any perceived enemy to their cause.. a prime example was their war against the catholic church that was the most influential religious entity in the country; it took the supreme leader only a few public discourses to send the vast majority of clergy packing and back to their country, in this case spain.. the jehovah’s witnesses were an insignificant minority but they over estimated their importance and displayed a belligerent attitude, it was known that this was a us based religion and an easy target to connect them with the cia.
-
-
Hecce
Now that President Obama will be visiting Cuba it seems like a good time to go back to the early days of the Revolution and the WT.
Before the Castro takeover the WT Branch in Cuba was very well organized, the Branch Overseer was Cecil Goff a very able administrator. There was a core of missionaries with a lot of experience; names that come to mind are Harry Duffield, Salvino Ferrari, William Simpkins and a few more. Some local brothers were also very well trained and did an excellent job in taking care of the spiritual needs. It seems proper to name them, like Humberto Hernandez, Orestes Ibanez, the Fayad brothers and many native Cos.
The first impact of the change in government was the loss of the American Brothers, some of them were assigned out of the country and the remaining group was eventually expelled. After that initial event no major change was felt, Humberto Hernandez a native brother who was a Gilead Graduate took over as Branch Overseer and together with the fine core of local brothers did a very fine job in keeping the continuity of the work.
As the political climate was changing a lot of the better qualified brothers started leaving the country, this included many of the COs and Congregation Servants with lots of experience; so every day the bench was becoming thinner and thinner. Eventually the Branch Overseer Brother Hernandez departed due to medical reasons and another local Gilead Graduated Brother Juan del Rio took over as Branch Overseer.
By that time about five of six years into the Revolution, very dark times were in the future of the JWs internally and externally; they were going to face harsh persecution from the outside and a lot of chaos and confusion from the inside.
Good for now, will follow up in the near future.
-
143
Fidel Castro and the WT
by Hecce ini am going to engage on a trip to the past and share with you some of the matters that marked the beginning of the jws persecution in cuba.
you will be surprised that the pattern that was followed is very similar to what happened in other dictatorial countries.. in the cuban case, i am going to surprise you and tell you that like what happened with hitler; the wt was partially responsible for their clash and confrontation with the cuban government.
during the early 60s the revolution was fighting for survival and they were willing and ready to demolish any perceived enemy to their cause.. a prime example was their war against the catholic church that was the most influential religious entity in the country; it took the supreme leader only a few public discourses to send the vast majority of clergy packing and back to their country, in this case spain.. the jehovah’s witnesses were an insignificant minority but they over estimated their importance and displayed a belligerent attitude, it was known that this was a us based religion and an easy target to connect them with the cia.
-
-
Hecce
There was a question regarding the legal status of the WT, here is some information on that:
3. (C) The religious leaders explained that the Jehovah Witnesses have rapidly expanded since 1994. They stated that in 1996 there were 70,000 practitioners in Cuba, and that since then the number has grown to 90,000. The number is far greater than is cited in several studies of religion in Cuba. There has been a steady increase despite the fact that the community has lost many members through emigration. Jehovah Witnesses are frequently approved to travel to the US as refugees. The organization has not petitioned the government to be officially recognized as a religion. They are not a member of the state sanctioned Council of Churches. Because of doctrinal differences the organization does not get involved in ecumenical efforts. The leaders presented that they have a minimum amount of friction with the government. The members steer clear of any involvement in politics. They are not allowed to establish individual "Kingdom Halls" as places of worship. They said that their members hold regular meetings and bible study classes without difficulty in private homes throughout the island. Some of these residences can accommodate several hundred people. The leaders said that even without having official status as a legal gathering, the local authorities have given verbal permission to hold the meetings. The leaders indicated that they are very respectful of their neighbors and the meetings have not been the subject of complaints.
-
143
Fidel Castro and the WT
by Hecce ini am going to engage on a trip to the past and share with you some of the matters that marked the beginning of the jws persecution in cuba.
you will be surprised that the pattern that was followed is very similar to what happened in other dictatorial countries.. in the cuban case, i am going to surprise you and tell you that like what happened with hitler; the wt was partially responsible for their clash and confrontation with the cuban government.
during the early 60s the revolution was fighting for survival and they were willing and ready to demolish any perceived enemy to their cause.. a prime example was their war against the catholic church that was the most influential religious entity in the country; it took the supreme leader only a few public discourses to send the vast majority of clergy packing and back to their country, in this case spain.. the jehovah’s witnesses were an insignificant minority but they over estimated their importance and displayed a belligerent attitude, it was known that this was a us based religion and an easy target to connect them with the cia.
-
-
Hecce
There are good reasons not to put your trust in the WT. The decisions that they make, especially during difficult times are hard to understand. I give you an example:
Sometime during the 70s a directive came from Brooklyn to open up on a certain day all the Kingdom Halls. This was a clear violation of the Government prohibition, and it was an act of civil disobedience in a country where those things are not tolerated. Don’t trust me on this but I think that D-Day was on “human rights day”.
The brothers faithfully and bravely proceeded to open up the KHs and whole congregations of families went to the meetings. As expected the response from the authorities was swift, patrol cars came to the different KHs, interrupted the meeting and arrested the leaders. Some of them went to prison as a result of this and a lot of the younger brothers were taken from the meeting to concentration camps.
Before and after the meeting the families attending were subjected to all sort of abuses from governments mobs, including stoning, egg throwing, spitting and a lot of insults hurdled at them.
A complete an unnecessary mess that accomplished nothing and made the situation worse for the flock.
Good for now, another day I will tell why the WT did this.
-
36
Good news to report: Congregations merged because lack of attendance, publishers & field service
by Khaleesi inso it's official, i am happy to report that we merged with another congregation having the same problem.
why is it good news???
because people are either waking up, fading or just not buying into this organization any longer or walking away.... i think many young ones are just not buying into it as much, i see many in the congregation i go to very depressed and some i know personally going thru major depression especially the young "sisters" in their early 20s.... .
-
-
Hecce
Everything said is factual, the Spanish growth was sustaining the increases. Their is a marked decrease in attendance and baptisms. Before the norm was 50 or more at the Circuit Convention, now maybe from 10-20. The majority of the new ones are relatives of the publishers or their children. -
143
Fidel Castro and the WT
by Hecce ini am going to engage on a trip to the past and share with you some of the matters that marked the beginning of the jws persecution in cuba.
you will be surprised that the pattern that was followed is very similar to what happened in other dictatorial countries.. in the cuban case, i am going to surprise you and tell you that like what happened with hitler; the wt was partially responsible for their clash and confrontation with the cuban government.
during the early 60s the revolution was fighting for survival and they were willing and ready to demolish any perceived enemy to their cause.. a prime example was their war against the catholic church that was the most influential religious entity in the country; it took the supreme leader only a few public discourses to send the vast majority of clergy packing and back to their country, in this case spain.. the jehovah’s witnesses were an insignificant minority but they over estimated their importance and displayed a belligerent attitude, it was known that this was a us based religion and an easy target to connect them with the cia.
-
-
Hecce
To all contributors:
The sad part about this, is that the brothers had complete trust in the Society, they had the confidence that Brooklyn had plans and contingencies for a situation like this. We were instructed to just follow instructions and be confident that everything will work out, that was hardly the case.
One example, the Malawi experience was in a minor scale repeated with the military service; after the initial wave of abuse and beatings, the Government offered an alternative military service under civilian control. This was an accommodation for the religious objectors, the vast majority of religions agreed but not the JWs. Once again they received the harshest punishment and went to jail for three years for something that was permitted in Mexico and that today is standard practice all over the world.