so, Six, what did you decide to give?
Posts by teejay
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8
Gift ideas???
by SixofNine ini'm probably going to a grad party for a jw kid.
dad is an elder, mom a pioneer.
i'd like to think of some gift that would actually help the guy, and still not clue in his parents that i work for satan.
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15
ignorance is bliss
by teejay ini saw kevin yesterday.. we met almost twenty years ago.
he's not overly blessed with a .
he had a life free from the pain of ever knowing that had been played for a .
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teejay
Joelbear
Am I happier now than when I was a Jehovah's Witness? At times yes, at times
no. The outside real world can be harsher than the sheltered JW world and many
people like Kevin are very happy to live in a place where there are still ups and
downs but the fluctuations are not as steep as they can be out there in reality.
I know my parents could not exist out here in reality. They would be eaten alive.I think you have understood the point of my post. Some people experience
genuine satisfaction in being a Witness. It has very real advantages for some
people. Your parents sound a lot like my mom… a lot like Kevin. She was and
still is "a believer." I'd never even try to clue her in. If I were successful,
I think it would kill her, and if it didn't kill her, the remaining years of her life
would be very miserable. I think I'll do the right thing and let her keep on sleeping.I did not know many witnesses, if any, who had found true inner satisfaction.
But perhaps I was just projecting my own unsatisfacton onto them.Ahhh, but that can be said about the whole world, can't it?
People who have never been and will never be JWs, who have had every
opportunity to reach their full potential, admit to not having found true
inner peace and contentment. The JW religion isn't part of the equation.
Unhappiness is not a reality exclusively experienced by JWs. On the other
hand, as with people like Kevin, your parents, and my mother, the opposite
IS true: happiness is being a Jehovah's Witness, and what gives anyone the
right to tell them otherwise?peace and a handshake, Joel
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20
THE GOVERNING BODY EXPOSED
by bj in"through the ages the lavish wealth of religion that profess christianity has disturbed many people.
popes, bishops, and other religious dignitaries have lived in splendor supported by their flocks, many of whom have existed in poverty.
the situation has not changed in modern times.
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teejay
bj
nice post, bj.
Kinda makes me sick, to think of all the money I spent in contributions, car
expenses (field service), book and magazine purchases, etcetera, etcetera,
etcetera while the leaders lived like kings. I wonder: do they still live like this? -
140
NEW RELIGION! NEED INPUT!
by TR inthis is sort of a take-off of the "what should the wt do" thread.. i need to get together a board of directors and elect a president and officers.
we need to figure out a doctrine, a manifesto, and a set of disciplinary rules.
we need to figure out a way to fund our new movement.
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teejay
TR,
funny thread, but there's no way in hell i'm readin' through
seven pages...and you can have your new religion, too. been there. done that.
peace to you all, though, and be sure to protect the children.
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10
Baptismal Questions
by LovesDubs ini was baptized june 1, 1985. thats the day they started using the new baptismal questions in their baptismal talk on the baptismal day to all the baptismal candidates.
did any of you actually hear those questions they made you stand up to hear read?
would any of us at that moment in time actually have said anything but a resounding "yes!!!
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teejay
LovesDubs,
I was baptized in '74, and I couldn't have told you the questions
that were asked of me that Sunday morning had a gun been put
to my head. As you can see below, there has been a radical change
in the second question. I will reserve comment on what I think about
the current #2.
______________________________________________________February 15, 1964 Watchtower, pg 127:
1 Have you repented of sin with such restitution as you are able,
and are you trusting in the merit of Christ's sacrifice for the
forgiveness of your sins and the basis of your justification?2 Have you made a full consecration of yourself with all the powers
that you possess -- talent, money, time influence -- all to the Lord,
to be used faithfully in His service, even unto death?"-------------------------------------------------------------------
May 1, 1973 Watchtower, pg 280:
1 Have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing
yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs
salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation
proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?2 On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation,
have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will
henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through
the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?-------------------------------------------------------------------------
June 1, 1985 Watchtower, p30:
1 On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of
your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?2 Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you
as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-
directed organization? -
15
ignorance is bliss
by teejay ini saw kevin yesterday.. we met almost twenty years ago.
he's not overly blessed with a .
he had a life free from the pain of ever knowing that had been played for a .
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teejay
COMF
After I said, "Sometimes I can't help but think that it would have been
better never to have known the full story, to live out my life in blissful
ignorance" you said:Not me. I have to know. The facts, the reality, however harsh and
barren it may be. I don't want the pretty lie, the dope that dulls my
faculties and allow me to drift emotionlessly through life. If there are
sharp rocks there, I want to see them. If there is scorched sand, I want
to feel it beneath my feet.Actually, I'm exactly the same way. On another thread I asked for
recommendations of some reading material. Lindy suggested
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3460/quest.html
it was exactly what I was looking for.I shared it with my very inactive but JW apologist sister. She was nearly
livid, wondering why I bothered with so much negative information. My
response to her was almost exactly like yours: "I jusss wanna know." I
figure an ugly truth beats a pretty lie any day -- just TELLL me. Once I
know the facts, we can go from there.Thanks, Cap'n, and good health to you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Senior Member
Surely the fact that your friend Kevin was DF for a while shows that
somewhere within him there is an element of dubdom that he is
unhappy with.You'd be surprised. A lot of the people who are df'd actually believe that
they deserve the shitty treatment they get. It may not be a happifying
experience, but it motivates them to conform and get back into the good
graces of god and his chosen mouthpiece.He doesnt sound like the type that would make waves and have the
local gestapo elders make an example of.He isn't. He's a very humble, likeable man, someone who you'd probably
never notice, but if you did, you'd thank your lucky stars that you'd
found a jewel of a human. He isn't a high-profile type… how he got
himself df'd in the first place still isn't clear to me.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wannahelp
Since I've never been a JW, I've been looking for the 'experience' so I
know how best to approach my friend, or if I should leave my friend
alone and let him be 'happy'. Actually, I've been trying to determine if
he is happy or not.I remember your 'arrival' a couple of weeks ago. (how's your JW
friend's dating thing going?)Is he (your friend or Kevin) happy? That was the point of my post.
Who's to say? I wonder if even he can say. I mean we can get real
philosophical and question whether any of us are happy. Put some people
in front of their favorite plate of food and they're "happy." Is that what
happiness is? Sometimes people post on this and other ex-JW boards (or
ex-Catholic, ex-Mormon, ex-Ex boards) and say that those still "in" are
surely unhappy because of this or that or the other. I wonder. I know I
can't be happy living that way anymore, but that's me. There's only one
of me, thank god. I don't presume to speak for everybody.He says he is 'getting happy', of course, he's been getting happy the entire
time I've known him. He also says he is continually forced to do things he
does not want to do. (Hmm, there is that conscience .vs. watchtower
doctrine thing again)I make my daughter go to bed even though she doesn't want to. When the
time comes, she has to eat her vegetables. Like it or not, she will put away
her toys and go to school. She will learn, whether she wants to or not, her
ABCs and her math tables. We ALL do things we don't want to do, but they
are for our good. Who's to say that what we view as harm being done to
loyal JWs is really harm? The Watchtower capitalizes on this basic truth of
human nature to its own advantage, of course.From the two weeks I've spent on this board reading, and posting, I've
come to realize exactly how much your emotions have to be turned off
to be a witness. In fact, my friend has often said he doesn't have a
heart.Be careful of judging all JWs by either your friend or those of us that are
here. Sometimes I wonder about us ex-JWs that post here (me included).
Why are we still here? Why do we post so much? These two questions
can be asked of those who never post but visit the site regularly to read
what others write. Why do we do this? Is this type of behavior normal or
ab-?As far as emotions, yes, JWs are unemotional about certain things.
Birthdays, Mother's Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas songs playing at the
mall, the Star Spangled Banner evoke a pittance of emotional response
from the average JW. JWs are still emotional beings, of course. Their
emotions are just redirected.The 'heart' comment of your friend I don't understand, but I DO understand
this, and perhaps there is a connection: when I was a little boy, and the
question of what I wanted to be when I grew up was asked, I never had a
vision, a dream, of who I wanted to be when I grew up. I was not allowed
to dream of a life other than the one preached by the Watchtower and so I
didn't. Since most of the "worldly" professions required an education beyond
high school, I never saw it for me. Maybe that's what your friend means when
he says that he doesn't have a heart.So, even though you are out, have you turned your heart back on yet?
Good question. Very good question. I don't know. Probably not.
Or are you still living with the WT baggage that prevents your heart
from actually feeling? I'll bet any slave whomever and wherever that
slave is will always opt for freedom rather than continued slavery if
given the option, even though it may require alot of re-adjustment,
some of it painful, at first. More to the point, it sounds like you are
having some difficulties with adjusting to your new found freedom. So,
how are you doing? Are you ok?Very good questions, all. I think about their essence often. I'll answer this way:
I've had counseling. It can be addictive. I don't waste my time when I've gone.
Up front I've told them of my JW background because it goes a long way to
explaining whatever difficulties I've had in my life. Needless to say, it came as a
shock to the therapist (because I don't bullshit and mince my words), but not
totally. She was very good. After listening to me spill my guts, she very
accurately summed me up in four words whose simplicity literally stunned me,
provoking a long silence: "you were a believer." I was precisely that.But not all JWs are. Some are able to see through the bullshit and find a way to
coexist with the falsehoods, lies, and misinformation but stay connected to the
religion. I was raised with it, though, and believed it from an early age, never
learning the skill to see the 'truth' for what it is. If I ever had doubts I quite
effectively covered them over years ago. It's been quite a journey, being
Dorothy and coming to find that the Wizard is just a man, nothing more, forcing
me to put aside a 30-year-long dream and build a life anew. As it's been said, an
ex-JW will always be an ex-JW. I think that's why we still come here. We carry
a lot of baggage that we probably will never fully let go of.Am I okay? How am I doing? I'm doing good. I just wonder sometimes. And
dream. Thanks for asking.peace,
tj -
15
ignorance is bliss
by teejay ini saw kevin yesterday.. we met almost twenty years ago.
he's not overly blessed with a .
he had a life free from the pain of ever knowing that had been played for a .
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teejay
Six,
Do you know a bunch of blissful Jehovah's Witnesses
somewhere? Hell, if you find them, let me know… I'm
not afraid to speculate that I am WAY happier than Kevin.
He has no guarantees, just "probably you MAY be concealed…Either I didn't express myself well enough or you didn't understand.
Either way, my point wasn't that all the Kevins of the world are
blissfully happy but that it's likely that being a JW doesn't' make
him any more miserable than anyone else (if that makes any sense).Also, even though I was raised in the truth, my personal views are
such that now I have little reason to believe that any of what Kevin
believes is based in fact, he just thinks it is. I know there are no
guarantees but since he truly believes what the Society has told him,
he may enjoy a certain level of comfort because of what he believes
to be true.------------------------------------------------------------------------
tergiversator,
It doesn't take a very long list of missed educational opportunities
or voice lessons or or school trips or hanging out with worldly friends
(without the guilt trip) or being in a play or just not always being so
darned different from everyone else every second of every day, to
see why being a witness can eat away at whatever happiness is
derived from "having the truth"....there are many unhappinesses that ail good, obedient, loyal
witnesses who wouldn't ever dream of doubting their doctrine.
I wonder how many people there are who are simple enough that
they would be truly happy with a lifetime of a low-skilled job, an
insular routine of meetings and "good" association, unquestioning
acceptance of every nuance of every dictate that comes out of
Brooklyn, the necessity to always "put on a good face for the
world", etc. I tend to doubt that many people could naturally be
'perfect' witnesses without chafing at some aspect or another,
at some time in their life.Good points, and thank you. I have been wondering about what
I said about Kevin for a long time, years even. These two
paragraphs have helped put those thoughts to rest. Scott Peck in
People of the Lie said that anything that stood in the way of
a person being able to live a full and happy life was evil. It was
then that I came to the conclusion that the WTB&TS was evil. You
have reminded me of it.--------------------------------------------------------------------------
pat,
I was very unhappy and lonely most of the time, but no one knew.
So, it's not really a fair assessment to judge on that basis, imo.I know of many JWs, as with the population in general, who are on
antidepressant meds.What you see publicly doesn't reflect private lives.
Kevin has given up a great deal, whether it bothers him or not. How
can not having an opportunity to marry not bother someone? How
can feeling like a lower class citizen not affect one's happiness,
whether they show it or not?Believing in what I consider a fairy-tale-type belief can lead to
happiness only in a very small, immature mind that is willing to
shut out virtually everything else but the fairy tale.Very good points. In thinking of Kevin, I guess I assumed that he
is as happy as I was when I was a JW. And I was… happy, that is.
I guess i had an immature mind (by your definition) because I didn't
mind a lot of the things in the religion that are distasteful to me now.
I was thoroughly deluded and I figure there are people that are still
like that and proud of it. Thinking of what you three have said, it is
quite likely that there are many JWs in a constant state of misery,
the dull kind that can't quite be identified. It's a shame to live that way.Thanks for your responses.
Peace
tj -
60
jws hassle 3 yr old
by Blackcat inseems the jws are getting desprate for recruits, an article from a localpaper....... http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/story3.html thought you all would be interested!
!
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teejay
Well, Six, it looks like your moderate view is in the minority here, but I'm
going to have to side with you. I'm sorry to have to tell you this but your
views are identical to mine on this issue so maybe you oughta get yourself
checked my friend -- thinking like me and all. Then again, you know what
they say: great minds travel in pairs.First, I was wondering… the news article said, "She immediately ran
downstairs and jumped in her car to catch up with the pair." I wonder if,
in her mad dash to read the riot act to those two hapless JWs she
remembered to take her children along or forgot them in the yard, being a
concerned parent, and all …I guess I'm one of the only ones here who talked to kids out in service.
Well, I confess: I did. I never thought about it being a horrendous crime
as some suggest. I do recall first asking if mommy or daddy were home.
And I also remember a time or two over the years when the parents
weren't exactly thrilled if they happened to pull up in the car or come
downstairs to find their children being proselytized -- by me. I even
started a study or two with a teen, but for some reason the study never
lasted more than a week or two. With this background in mind, I would be
a total hypocrite to expect JWs (or Muslims or Baptists or Catholics, etc.)
NOT to try to proselytize my daughter or think they were scheming some
ugly evil if they did.Before anyone gets carried away by telling me what a fool I am, I will
make another confession: my two-year-old daughter is my life. My reason
for being now revolves around doing everything that I can to see to it that
she has a better life than the one that I have had. I take the role very
seriously. Also, I see myself as her Number One Protector and, like TR, I
have no problem spending time in jail for the sake of my little one
(although if I play it right, I should get away with it). If the time ever
comes, I will not look to the judicial system to affect justice. Since I was a
kid I always did like the Mosaic provision of the Avenger of Blood/Next of
Kin. It had a lovely ring to it the first time I ever heard it.That being said, my daughter goes to the meetings whenever her mother
does and that's often. If I had my wish, she wouldn't, but there it is. So
she's already hearing bullshit. As she gets older my plan is to start going
back to the meetings to help tune her bullshit meter. She's not going to be
raised like I was and believe it all.So whether it's at the hall, in the yard or at the shopping mall, she is going
to encounter people, many adults and many ideas. Being the precocious
child that she is, she's met quite a few people already. 99.999997% of the
people she meets are going to be decent people with the best of intentions.
I have no desire to shield her from interacting with them. I will not teach
her a fear of people or of what they say, whatever it is. Within reason…
within reason… people are free to say whatever they wish to my daughter.
We, she and I, will have a very open relationship wherein she is free to
come to me for explanations. She will have a finely tuned bullshit meter.I'm sorry for all of you who believe that it's a crime, a heinous sin, for an
adult to express basic human interest in children, even if that interest
includes sharing their view of god. Actually I'm sorry for your children
and the unrealistic, unreal world you are creating for them.Sad to say, sometimes the thought of how I might be viewed by the
parents crosses my mind when I encounter children. As a result, I am not
as friendly with them as I might be. I've always loved children so my
reticence causes me a little discomfort and the children miss out, as well.
I'm not totally ignorant of the pitiful winds of change and the sick world
we live in. There's little I can do about that except help my daughter. Yet,
again, within reason, I will welcome the good intentions of upright people.
They will be allowed to show my daughter that the world is yet brim full of
decent people, even if many of the decent ones are a little misguided by
silly thoughts of 'god'.I think the lady in the news article over-reacted and, perhaps without
meaning to, did waaay more harm to her children than good. I think the
same can be said for some of the folks here.peace,
todd -
15
ignorance is bliss
by teejay ini saw kevin yesterday.. we met almost twenty years ago.
he's not overly blessed with a .
he had a life free from the pain of ever knowing that had been played for a .
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teejay
I saw Kevin yesterday.
We met almost twenty years ago. He's not overly blessed with a
questioning or insightful mind, but his humble nature and generally
positive outlook and wholesome sense of humor made sharing time with
him enjoyable. He's just a good fellow.Kevin is a JW and works on the cleaning crew at the building were I work.
We never went to the same hall but saw each other when the brothers got
together to play basketball or at other social events. Occasionally he'd visit
my hall and we'd work together in service.After going years without ever seeing each other, about two years ago we
happened to meet late one afternoon. It was good to see his friendly face
after so long a time. I walked over to say hello, to see what was new in his
life and tell him what was new in mine. His mood was very reserved and
somber and I soon found out why. He told me that he was disfellowshipped,
his way of saying that a conversation would then be uncomfortable, if not
impossible. By then I'd become mentally free of whatever control the
Society had held over me and couldn't care less how they labeled him. I just
wanted to renew an old friendship -- it made no difference to me what his
religious status was. I was sure that he wouldn't understand.I understood his thinking, of course. We've seen and experienced it
before. The disfellowshipped adopt this persona of walking dead when it
comes to other JWs. He assumed I was a good JW and that I would toe
the company line and treat him like every other JW who saw him. He was
wrong on both points but my half-hearted attempt to break through his
resistant wall of self-doubt put upon him by the Society wasn't effective. I
decided not to push the issue and played along with his view of himself
although it pained me to do so. I saw no alternative.About a year went by and I happened to see him again. He approached me
this time and his mood was noticeably more cheerful. "I'm back," he said.
He'd been reinstated. I never liked the term 'I'm back' especially when the
person makes all the meetings. There they are, right among us, although
they are ignored like lepers. They haven't gone anywhere, we just treated
them as though we knew, without a doubt, that they were outside of
Divine Favor and we were within it. I think I successfully concealed that
my emotions were mixed when he told me of his reinstatement -- happy
that he'd achieved a goal that was important to him but sad for him just
the same.I'd love for Kevin to share my views of the Organization, but I think it
would do very little to improve his life, if it helped at all. He is in his mid-
forties, and following the lifelong obedience to the org. he has no
education beyond high school and has no ambition to get any. He is single
and out of loyalty to his god would not consider dating a "worldly"
woman. He has little to offer a sister materially and he has little ambition
to crack a whip in the congregation. For these reasons, few sisters give
him a second thought so he's probably going to be single for a long time.
He's content to "wait on Jehovah" to arrive astride a white stallion and
provide him with a better life, and SOON. Always soon -- right around the
corner. In the meantime, he's happy, working on a cleaning crew and
living with the satisfaction that his life is being spent in a way that makes
Jehovah happy somehow.And you know what? It's hard for me to see my life as superior to his.
Who can say I'm any happier than him? Truth be told, people like Kevin,
like my mother, like all the other Dubs that I view as enslaved, might even
be happier than me, if happiness could be measured on a scale somehow.It's possible that Kevin and I may live another forty years and then our
times on earth will pass. As death approaches, his faith will allow him to
embrace his end in the comfort that his sleep will be brief. He'll die,
comfortable and sure that he's lived a life of godly devotion. I'll be fairly
certain that he didn't. In unconsciousness, in what will pass as an instant,
he will awaken in a peaceful new world. I, on the other hand, will view
death, not as a brief respite from toil and trouble, but as the enemy his
bible says it is.It's something I wonder about sometimes. What's so awful about his
belief system? Why is my knowing so much more than Kevin superior to
his not knowing? So what if he didn't go to school? So what if it never
dawns on him that he wasted so much time listening to strangers living in
Brooklyn as they imposed rules on how he should live? He had friends. He had
social activities. He had a secure belief that what he was doing was right.
He had a life free from the pain of ever knowing that had been played for a
sucker.What did I go and do -- finding out the whole truth about the 'truth'?
Sometimes I can't help but think that it would have been better never to
have known the full story, to live out my life in blissful ignorance.peace,
todd
________________________________________________________
"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. "
------------------ Laurence J. Peter -
1
what i love about Jillani...
by teejay in[i posted this on the old h2o back in january...].
she loves shoes.... .
it may be 11:00 at night, and she may have pjs on, but she'll muscle up some .
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teejay
[i posted this on the old H2O back in january...]
she loves shoes....
it may be 11:00 at night, and she may have pjs on, but she'll muscle up some
sandles, or some Sunday-go-to-meeting black patent leather... she wants to
put them on. i'll be in another room, watching the news or football, and
she'll show up.. plop down the shoes. always shoes. and "shocks." it must
start early.she will not rest when i come home from work, until she helps me take my
work shoes off. she will have a fit if i want to sit for a minute. the second
they are off, she takes them both to my closet. she has to do it herself. "i got
it," she says. "okay, Baby."i like it when i ask her how she's doing and she says, in perfect English, "I'm fine."
i like it when she says: "thanth-choo." (thank you). sometimes she says it
real quiet and shy, like, even though you're the only one there, still, she
wants to make sure YOU'RE the only one who hears. a whispered "thanth
choo," accompanied by a grin. she knows what she's doing.when she says "shide"...
meaning: "let's go outside." when she cries, and i think of it, "shide?" is the
magic word. in other words: into the backyard. the only thing she knows out
there is "tree." she doesn't know "cloud" or "sky" or "wind." doesn't know
"star" or "moon." she knows tree, though. oh... and lately, she knows
"ooooh, cold!"and she knows how to press her hand against the door (when we come in),
putting pressure on it, to close it. and how to turn the lock.she HATES it when you try to give her a chip out of the bag. i mean she
pitches a fit. she wants to get her own chip, thank you very much.when i walk through the room where she's with her mother, and she says to
me, "hi, Baby." i call her Baby.lately she's been calling to me from other parts of the house.... "todd...
todd... Todd... Todd... TODD... TODD! TODD!!!" i try my best to ignore
her when she does it, but it makes even me laugh. "look, little girl. i'm not
Todd. i'm 'Daddy.'"i hate it (love it?) when she NEVER lets me eat in peace. she loves meat.
steak. chicken. sausage. whatever is on my plate, she likes. loves eggs. and
potatoes. and vegetables.and she likes watching me cook. breakfast. lunch. dinner. Standing at my
feet she says, "hmm. hmmm. hmmm." ("pick me up"). i never resist.she knows "hot."
speaking of "hot," she actually likes coffee. only a sip or two. but she likes
it. maybe only cause Daddy likes it.she knows how to get a tissue and blow her own nose. and then, to take the
tissue and put it in the trash. she wastes a lot of tissue, but you have to
marvel... and i do.i have never felt more powerless in my life than when she is sick.
i like it when i pick her up in the wee hours of every morning, on the way
out of the house, and she clings to me and grabs the hair on the back of my
head. i absolutely LOVE that.i like it when i try to give her to her mother (who's a very good mother, i
might say) and sometimes, not always, but sometimes Jillani sticks to me
and cries when i try to give her away.i like that. it melts my heart.
it makes me sad, for some reason, when she says "nite-nite".