Posts by scratchme1010

15

When is a JW considered "awake"...?

by biblexaminer in

1) they begin question .

2) they stop field service.

3) they stop going to kingdumb hall.

scratchme1010

I consider myself quite awake from their nonsense, and I've never done any of these:

4) They write letter stating they aren't a JW

5) They burn their watchtower literature (I used a WT once when I ran out of toilet paper, does that count?)

6) They burn their bible

7) They burn their neighbor's bible

8) They begin to sleep with strangers (did that while I was still in :-)

9) They buy a gun (never seen the need for one)

10) They use the gun to commit a crime (I've violated all sodomy laws, but I never needed a gun for it)

I guess the beginning of the awakening may be different for different people. Some people are still in and stay acting as if they are JWs because it's in their best interest to do so for their own reasons, and they are quite awake.

22

I have a theory related to the cult spectrum

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

translating jwfacts into spanish has made me critically analyze pretty much everything paul has written.

i would say paul is right 90%+ of the time.

some things are just things that are outdated, on other occasions, things are partially right and just need to be tweaked.anyhow... one of the articles is "where else would i go"?since i am an atheist, ideally, for me, the answer would be "become at least agnostic, if not atheist, and lead an evidence-based life".

scratchme1010

Check out the Worldwide Church of God... they were a BITE model cult, and now Grace International, from what I have read, isn't... but they went from non-mainstream to mainstream.

I may need a little more than just a person stating that this is no longer a cult. Furthermore, mainstream and "not a cult" are not synonyms.

Universal Definition
CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members.
This definition covers cults within all major world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from.

I am no expert, but what I have seen is that professionals an researches in the subject of cults have several different definitions and classifications of cults. In fact, some don't even use the word cult to define an organization, as it may be misleading based on the several definitions.

Here are a few definitions:

"worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings...a particular form or system of religious worship; especially in reference to its external rites and ceremonies...devotion or homage to a particular person or thing.“ – Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (1971)

"A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious...
A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator...
Great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work...b. a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion." - Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition (1994)

Then there's a "millennial" definition of a cult:

"A group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc.), designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community. – West & Langone, 1986, pp. 119-120"

That definition applies only to what they call a "totalistic type" of cult, which is one of the several ways in which some experts classify cults, such as:

cults as dangerous, authoritarian
cults as culturally innovative or transcultural
cults as loosely structured protoreligions

There's a 4th form of classification of cults, based on Stark and Bainbridge’s taxonomy (1985) that distinguishes:

audience cults
client cults
cult movements

As I mentioned, it's not that cut and dry, what is clear in any of the descriptions, classifications or definitions, is that all those groups have several typical characteristics, many of which some are:

unethical influence
conversion
manipulation
mind-control - brainwashing
exploitation
charismatic group
new religious movement – alternative movement
psychological abuse
harm

That's the school where I come from, so my question is how does one can say that some organization became/was a cult and now isn't? How is that measured, what makes them a cult before and not a cult now?

11

You're not going to believe what I'm about to tell you....

by kpop in

jw
friends

nicely sums up most of the population.... https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe.

scratchme1010

Great post. I enjoyed very much.

22

I have a theory related to the cult spectrum

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

translating jwfacts into spanish has made me critically analyze pretty much everything paul has written.

i would say paul is right 90%+ of the time.

some things are just things that are outdated, on other occasions, things are partially right and just need to be tweaked.anyhow... one of the articles is "where else would i go"?since i am an atheist, ideally, for me, the answer would be "become at least agnostic, if not atheist, and lead an evidence-based life".

scratchme1010

Cults become cults in the BITE model sense because they are different and "persecuted". Once they become mainstream, they let go of the cult characteristics and become a healthy church, but at the cost of losing their "non-mainstream" views.

I'm not 100% sure that it's that cut and dry. First, I haven't heard of any high demand, controlling group, such as cults, that has made changes to become a mainstream religion. In fact, one of the characteristics of a cult is precisely that they choose to diverge from mainstream religion, and their "out of the ordinary" teachings attract people, which becomes their signature.

As an example, I don't think that the word "disfellowship" is going away any time soon from the WT, just like the word "defoo" will be retired from another cult I know uses that word.

Cults don't "lose their mainstream views", their non-traditional views is one of their core characteristics. Some organizations evolve into cults, but the opposite hasn't happened (as far as I know).

Could you think of any christian denomination that teaches non-mainstream stuff and is NOT a cult in the BITE model sense?

My sister in law and her husband are involved in this Christian organization that has had some non-traditional events, one of them in a theater. It was explained to me second hand, but as I understand, they asked people to take their shoes off and leave them in the theater and return to their homes barefoot. Not sure what the point of that was.

Non-traditional practices do exist in mainstream religious organizations. As per the BITE model, the difference is not the B, I,T or E words, but their modifiers which is one word, control. Many things can be done in the spirit of providing healthy spirituality to people, for as long as there's no intention of controlling, as you state, I see no reason to see them as unnecessary.

And of course, please keep in mind that all the things in the BITE model occur to people once in the cult. People don't submit themselves to control voluntarily (I mean, under normal conditions). People always neglect to consider why many people actually join those groups, which have everything to do with what they feel, not with what they know. When they join they know nothing, but feel something.

Also, I'd like to ask, if I may:

Christadelphians? Cult.
JW's? Cult
Mormons? Cult
SDA's? If they are strict, Cult.
Bible Students? Cult
Iglesia Ni Cristo? Cult
Two-By-Two's? Cult
Christian Scientists? Cult
Worldwide Church of God? Cult

Where does that come from?

33

Can the dead hear?

by AmyWatson916 in

the "what does the bible really teach?

" book says we cannot speak to the dead (page 64) and that the dead do not hear (page 58) but on page 68 the book has jesus talking to a dead man and the dead man apparently hearing and responding.

the same thing happens on page 69 when peter talks to a dead woman and the dead woman apparently hears and responds.

scratchme1010

Can the dead hear?

No, they are dead.

29

The Ultimate Conversion

by Etude in

one thing that surprised me shortly after joining this site was the number of individuals who, after experiencing the deception of being a jw and the hypocrisy of the “truth”, switched to being catholic or “born-again” evangelists.

it seemed to me like jumping from the hot pan into the fire.. i don’t want to piss anyone off for his or her choices.

i feel everyone is free to believe what they may.

scratchme1010

Etude, what I have come to learn is that people have needs, other than learning something about god, or the bible. Again, most people join religious organization because of what they feel, not for what they know.

People have other needs that may trump reason or doctrine. Some people need to belong to something, need to have some structure in their lives that they cannot come up with themselves, need a sense of community, need a sense of certainty, are too disappointed with the state of affairs in the world, feel like there are good role models to follow in the organization they join, feel close to other family members who are devoted to the church they go to, like the opportunities to socialize and events that they provide, feel that the church setting helps them stay away from drugs and other behaviors, or simply feel that the only way they can feels any spirituality is by having a community place where they can go.

The list of reasons are endless and VALID. In fact, JWs who join know nothing about what the WT teaches. They join because of what they feel. They learn what they believe later. Their feelings is what governs their decision of joining a religious organization.

14

Where did Jesus plug in the blow dryer?

by compound complex in

greetings!.

looking at images of jesus lookalikes, i found a vaguely familiar item!.

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2013/03/what-does-jesus-look-like.html.

scratchme1010

Greetings!
Looking at images of Jesus lookalikes, I found a vaguely familiar item!

Hey, sexiness sells. I'd be the bride of that Jesus.

10

Jehovah's Witnesses: DO THEY FACE REALITY

by TerryWalstrom in

article

1.the organization itself denies access to reality and substitutes its own version, interpretations, and meanings.

a.only watchtower approved publications are allowed.

scratchme1010

Jehovah's Witnesses: DO THEY FACE REALITY

No. That's what religions and cults are about, not facing reality.

18

Maybe you can help with this?

by vienne in

as some of you know, i'm not a witness, but i am the co-author of a series of history book that discuss the watch tower's earliest years.

russell mentions a 'brother' van der ahe as an early days wt evangelist.

we can't identify him.

scratchme1010

I wish I could help. I'd like to know when you find out.

7

So poopie decided to go to meeting today so poopie now say

by poopie in

jw
friends

after a long long time after today's wt i can finally say hello to df ones because they are made in gods image yes i can even ask how they are doing without feare i will get df because if an elder walks up i will pull out trusty wt that says fellow humans deserve hover and respect..

scratchme1010

Good for you (I guess).