Posts by PetrW

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PetrW

@nicolaou

If I were to evaluate the events concerning the death of the Egyptian children without taking into account any supernatural event, the "logic" of the events is not unlike what we know from other events: one nation enslaves another, commits barbaric crimes, including the murder of children, and after a certain period of time, when the oppression reaches an unbearable situation, that death by fighting the oppressors is no different from death by starvation or slave labor, there is a violent revolt. The oppressed will turn against all real or perceived oppressors. Very often, then, violent actions are accompanied by revenge even on innocents and lead to bestiality...

If God does not exist, then the question of theodicey is useless. The evil of e.g. natural disasters is a "higher power" that can be prevented to some extent (not building houses in floodplains, building dams or fighting climate change). Evil that comes from humans can be eliminated by police, courts or the military. Diplomacy or military alliances are then supposed to have a "deterrent" role against potential invaders. Wars have been, are and will be. Diseases were, are and will be, but much of it, we have learned to manage.

From this (simple but understandable) point of view, you are right, I don't feel the need to discuss the issue of theodicy at all either. Everything can also be explained without God.

But I also understand that if you allow for the existence of God (the theodicey question itself presupposes that the existence of some rational, supernatural being is at least hypothetically admitted), then you put yourself in a less advantageous position. Clearly, one who addresses the theodicy question is working with some notion of God (not necessarily Christian ) that the opponent should - at the very least - accept as part of the proposed answer. It follows then that the plausibility of the solution then (perhaps!?) rests on intellectual ability rather than on the actual solution...

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PetrW

@nicolaou

Interesting challenge! I'm just a bit puzzled by the fact that if I'm to address the question of the relationship between God and Evil, what do you mean by "supernatural"?

Don't worry, it's not an evasive maneuver to absolve myself of responsibility!

Try writing your most pressing accusation with respect to God as part of your response as well. My point is just to understand your criticisms more. One last question: are you willing to read long texts? Because theodicey's question is indeed very difficult and there are many counter-arguments to deal with...

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PetrW

Nicolaou: He didn't show much goodness to thousands of Egyptian kids when he had them killed in their beds did he?

*

According to Ex. 1:22, Pharaoh commanded every male newborn to be killed. The story then unfolds as we all know it. If I don't want to comment on theodicey's question (I can address it!) (why does God allow evil and if evil is even committed by God himself?), then the subsequent death of the Egyptian firstborn children, would even the score...tooth for tooth, eye for eye, newborn for newborn...? But I don't think it was. I'm just suggesting that simply considering the context is enough to make it very hard to side with someone... And at the same time: your reaction is largely justified. God and Evil is indeed a very pressing issue...

Although there are so few, terribly few, reasons for believing in a loving God, I still think God was right to act at the time. I can "rationalize" it for you, but I guess in the end, it still comes down to: do I want to believe or do I not want to believe...

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@aqwsed12345

I'm not Catholic. But having read several Catholic commentaries on Revelation, your explanation of Babylon is good apologetics. I don't think the RCC is Babylon directly, or that the RCC is Babylon along with others, as JWs interpret it.

I will try to finish the text that relates to my view of Babylon's identity. So far it is a torso. And I don't enjoy writing...

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@Duran

Duran: In both cases it should be noted that it is AFTER the coming out of the abyss/death-stroke being healed that that is the time people are said to worship/admire the beast and that none of those who do so are written in the book of life.

PW: I don't think that's quite accurate: the Beast of 13:8 has people worshipping it who are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, just like the Beast of 17:8. To me, this is just another argument for the Beast of 13 and 17 being one and the same...?

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@Vidqun

PetrW, yes, I believe this is what is explained in Chapter 13. The combination beast includes previous empires closely associated with Israel. Seven heads: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, British Empire (later Anglo-American).

The combination beast from the sea is a conglomeration of Daniel’s four beasts (except for Egypt and Assyria). This beast would have a limited lifespan of 42 months. Head with mortal wound is the British Empire, economically on its last legs.

*

With your permission, I will ask you a few questions that I also asked myself and searched for an answer to (the result was that I then completely rejected the interpretation that the heads of the Beast correspond to different empires in human history).

1. the Beast ascends into the sea (13:1) whole, including all 7 heads, and the Beast (not the head) is also cast into the lake of fire (19,20). If the heads are connected to the body and cannot exist without the body, how is it possible that the Beast would contain the heads, the Imperium, to the extent of almost 2500 years, when the body and heads, have yet to appear? How is it possible that the head of Assyria or the head of Medo-Persia, connected with the body, would be thrown into the lake of fire before the 1000 year Kingdom? What threat does the head of Medea, for example, pose today if the Beast should already be here?

2. Rev. 1:1 ("what must come to pass") and 1:3 "the time is at hand" delineate apocalyptic events into the future. How is it possible that John is writing about the future but actually sees the past? Real but extinct e.g. Assyria, how does that affect the future?

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@Vidqun

If I understand correctly, then you have the idea that the Beast (13:1) disappears and reappears in Beast 17:8 from the abyss (from inactivity) to fulfill the requirement that the Beast "was, is not, and must come out of the abyss"?

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

I will try to explain my view of the Beast of the Sea (13:1) and that it is identical to the Beast of the Abyss.

For the sake of simplicity, I will not, at the outset, quote classical NT-lexics like Bauer or Kittel, because I assume that everyone can verify this for himself. I'll just present my view:

The sea of which he writes (13:1) is, in the usual allegorical sense understood across the churches (which I also hold in this case), identified with the wicked according to Isa 57:20. The "sea," then, expresses both the "mass" of humanity, and the constant restlessness and "spilling over" of opinions in rapid succession from one place to another. The "sea" represents a certain contrast to the (unfaithful!!!) "earth". If the "sea" of people can be understood as meaning that they do not express any fixed position (see the book by the Polish sociologist Zygmunt Bauman: Liquid Modernity), the people who represent the "earth" may have had some contact with something solid, some "rock that is Christ", but sooner or later they abandoned it or even betrayed it. Out of them will come a false prophet.

Back to the "sea". How is this related to the abyss? An explanation of how to understand the function(!!!) of "abyssos" is provided by Rev. 20:1 and 20:7. In (20,1) it is stated that the angel has the keys to the abyss and Satan is cast into it. In 20,7 it is written that he is released from "prison" after a period of 1000 years. Abyssos thus has the function of a "prison", some controlled place where one either enters or is released from. This is illustrated in Luke 8:31 where the demons plead with Jesus not to be put into the abyss.

Where is abyssos located? If we accept the eschatological meaning of the word abyssos, as "prison," then an interesting answer is offered in (18:2), where it is written that Babylon the Great is the place of the "prison" of all unclean spirits. This is a very strong suggestion to consider the identity of Babylon the Great... (but that is a separate topic). The idea that there is a prison for spirits is also hinted at in 1 Peter 3:19.

If I focus on Revelation, there is always something that comes out of the abyss that is identified as a woe (9:12): it is the apocalyptic locusts of 9:1 (cf. 9:11) or just the Beast of the abyss (17:8).

What is the connection with the sea? If I accept that "a-byssos" means the bottomless depths of some waters, and there is a demonstrable connection between the waters of the sea (Gen 1:2 or Ps 105:9 (106:9) according to the LXX "The sea of reeds dried up...you led them in the abyss, as in the wilderness...") then the statement in 11:7 (17:8) that the Beast will come up in the bottomless depths of the human "sea" is just a refinement of where he will come up from.

The place of origin of the Beast of 13:1 and 17:8 is identical.

However, this does not necessarily prove that they are also one and the same Beast. Their number must be somehow differently defined.
For me, the defining number for the Beasts is the numerals: if in 13:11 it is stated that the false prophet (an animal from "the earth") is identified as "another" and immediately afterwards, in 13:12, that he takes over the power of the "first" animal, then only two animals are defined here. The image of the Beast is also only one (though it is assumed that it will be multiplied, but it will be the same as the image of Caesar on the coins), and the Beast will have a name (13:17-18). In 14:9, as well as 14:11; 15:2; 16:2; 16:10 (the throne of the Beast!) to 16:13, the Beast is mentioned with an image in the uniform usu. In 16:13 the Dragon, the Beast and the prophet are mentioned again, and from these come 3 unclean sayings. Again the number of actors is defined.

The final proof for the unity of the Beast from 13:1 and 17:8 is provided by 19:20: here the Beast and the false prophet are named, and those who received the χαραγμα and worshipped the image (according to chapter 13). Subsequently, the Beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not stated that the two Beasts and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@Duran

That's an interesting interpretation. My view is that when the Woman is in the wilderness for the 1260 days (12:6), then there is war in Heaven (12:7). And it is at that time - Satan is "busy" fighting - that the two witnesses begin their 1260 days (11:3).

In fact, in (11:3) it is stated that they "shall prophesy" (Greek verb in the future tense), they do not begin immediately, yet at the time of the 6th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is announced, the blowing of the trumpet is not described until (11:15). Their activity, therefore, does not fall until the time of the "last trumpet," the 7th trumpet.

I have this basic chronological idea of Revelation that (very simplistically): the first 7 years, are the seals and trumpets. Those are the fat times, from Joseph's dream in Egypt. At that time, on the one hand, the "wheat" (the daughters and sons of God) is being harvested, and it is increasing geometrically, while being purified. Then, after the last trumpet sounds, the "lean times" begin, the Beast, the false prophet, begins to work. Bowls of wrath begin to pour out, etc.

The 1260 days of the two witnesses add up to 42 months of the Beast and the false prophet. Everything culminates, the last, 14th year.

*

I am also suggesting that this contradicts, in a way, the temporal concept offered by Vidqun or you. But, on the other hand, I take your view as a good suggestion, to examine my own views and to identify any "leaky spots"...

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@Vidqun

I'll try today, to finish the basic framework regarding the Beasts. Especially their origin i.e. land (which I already hinted) and then the connection between sea/abyss/prison (guarded place).

I think you are right to start with the need to clarify the chronology of events. I wanted to do that too, but then it would get too complicated. That's why I've started writing about my basic perspective - so far without any particular consideration of chronology. The roles, functions and relationships of the Beasts. I'll describe them first, then place them in a timeline.