Posts by PetrW

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

BREAKING NEWS | Highlights of 2023 Worldwide Service Year Report

by Drearyweather in

breaking news | highlights of 2023 worldwide service year report.

on november 15, 2023, the service committee of the governing body shared highlights of the 2023 worldwide service year report with the bethel family.

the following exciting increases were announced: baptisms: during the 2023 service year, 269,517 persons were baptized.

PetrW

"The only statistics you can trust are the ones you have falsified yourself"

(c) Winston Churchill

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@Kosonen

But I don't think it will be impossible to know that it is quite near.

It can/will be recognized. But there is a difference between knowing something or proclaiming what you know. In the latter case, one can easily be in danger of being labeled a false prophet.

My understanding is that you have a 50% chance of it coming true as you claim. But since it may take place in a completely different "setting" then there is an equal chance that you are wrong.

Imagine that even in 2432 Jesus doesn't come and someone discusses the fact that in the 20's, 21st century it was very popular to equate certain characters in Revelation with UNO, America, etc. etc.

None of this has come to pass. Again: there is the threat of "false" prophecy...

But I'm not being so dramatic about it: rather, I'm pointing out that if someone in 1805 considered Napoleon Bonaparte to be some kind of head of the Beast, or the events of the French Revolution to be happening in Revelation, then they certainly had more reasons for claiming that as well. Nothing - from the perspective of 2023 - has come true. To me, this suggests that this is not the correct approach. That it is better to completely discard the paradigm where one looks to acute events or postures for their counterpart in Revelation.

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@Kosonen

When asked why UNO (or any other institution/government or country) has anything to do with Revelation when no one knows about "that day and hour", I usually get the answer that there is not just one "sign" to prove "it". It's not just UNO, but also this or that, over there or elsewhere, all confirming that the end is here... I then insist on the statement that no one knows about that day and hour, and ask how will UNO or other present day entities behave if Jesus doesn't come until, say, the 23rd or 25th century? What will happen to UNO or Russia or America, say, the year 2432?

If even the one who is to come does not know the time of his coming and claims to, then there is only one option left and that is to wait. But to wait means that Jesus may indeed come in 200 or 250 years, just as he may come in 20 or 25 years. In the matter of waiting for the Lord, all future options must have the same possibilities. How prepared are you for the alternative of the Lord coming in, say, 250 years? What effect does this alternative have on the truth of the UNO interpretation?

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@Vidqun

I'll start with what we agree on.

Ad the sea: we agree, there is nothing to add. I would even say that the same thing you wrote about the "sea" can also be done, from a symbolic-eschatological point of view, with the concept of "earth"...

I'm going to continue with what we agree less on:

Ad earth: here I miss your confirmation, for the other places in Revelation and which refer to the Greek γη (earth). I lack sufficient conclusiveness that γη (country) means some totalitarian systems with some democratic facade, or alternatively, why here so and in other places otherwise... the term γη in the NT-text, in terms of distribution of occurrence, is the most frequently represented in Revelation... that's why he thinks that your explanation for one occurrence, needs a stronger argumentation than the one you offer so far (I mean first the theoretical level, where the semantic meanings for each passage are evaluated, and only then the "materialization" = "what it can be", which you have already done)...

Ad abyssos: Your idea that abyssos expresses some "non-activity" is interesting = if I find a connection between 20:1;3 (abyssos) where Satan is cast and 20:7 where he is said to be released from "prison" again, then surely abyssos is a place of prison "non-activity". The moment of "non-activity" is demonstrable. However, I rather reject (I'm not entirely sure) that to associate abyssos with the statement "was, is not, and must come out of abyssos" that the "not" represents precisely the "abyssos"? The abyssos has not disappeared, therefore the "is not" must refer to the Beast, in my opinion. In my opinion, it is an important temporal datum that refers to the "position" of the writer (John) in terms of the timeline of the event. Simply put: at the time of the writing of Revelation, the Beast was not (I will elaborate in the following passage).

The last part is where we disagree.

I'll explain the paradox first: my refusal to understand the heads of the Beast as individual empires is based, among other things, on the very texts from Daniel that you also cite in support of "heads" having that meaning. That's the paradox.

First of all, what you and the exegetes in the past were right about: at the time Daniel saw or heard the prophecies, and if they were directly connected to any geographical or political realities, then indeed the prophecies had a literal fulfillment. I, for one, am not opposed to a literal interpretation that sees the statue as a picture from Babylon to the Roman Empire (by this I would see the fulfilled meaning of the words: was, is not, and shall appear" = by the destruction of Jerusalem, then the Roman Empire fulfilled its purpose and in terms of literal fulfillment of prophecy, fades away. As the Beast disappears from the prophetic meaning, to reappear at the "end of days.")

So: the literal fulfillment, I think, was just as valid as, say, Jesus talking about Jerusalem being besieged and having to flee to the mountains of Judah. These literal moments of prophecy were fulfilled, both in the case of Jesus speaking and in Daniel. But it is forgotten that there the main motive was eschatological warning. Jesus is answering the apostles' question of when the "end of the world" would be, so Jerusalem or the mountains of Judah have a double meaning: the historical and literal one, and the eschatological and symbolic one. Also, Daniel in (2:28) claims that the dream of the statue, refers to "subsequent // later i.e. final days", whereas the LXX, already here, sounds quite "New Testament" when it translates (2:28) as "last days".

But it is not only this text (2:28) that makes me respect this vision, especially(!!!) eschatologically and futuristically, i.e. that it will be fulfilled only in the future. In 2,35 a description is given of what was in the dream and it is described that the stone, crushes iron, clay, bronze, silver and gold, like chaff. If Daniel is then interpreting the dream, then in 2:38 he refers to the king as a golden head, and then in the commentary he again comes to the passage where the whole (statue) is destroyed - 2:45. The stone is torn from the rock and destroys the iron, bronze, clay, silver and gold. The Aramaic text no longer even preserves the order of the materials as they will be destroyed (see the BHS and the reference to the LXX which "levels" the text to 2:35). The statue and all it represents must be destroyed in its entirety. Whether the destruction is symbolic or physical, then of course all entities must be present somehow.

For example, if I claim that the feet and toes represent the "Anglo-American Empire" (or whatever) and it is destroyed, then something must exist at the same time that also represents the golden head. And a defunct empire in the form of ancient Babylon probably isn't and won't be that. I would have to see in the golden head some other - admittedly prior (see order of empires) - but still existing empire that will succumb to destruction like all the others. I think this is only possible if the empires/rulers are quickly replaced and the overall duration is very fast - the 42 months of Revelation is offered to me as the most reasonable interpretation...

Exactly the same is the case with the 4 animals of Daniel chapter 7. The animals appear together from "the sea" (7:3) and then it is specified where they will operate - "from the earth" (7:13). In 7:11-12 it is clearly communicated that the 4th animal will be destroyed, burned with fire, but the other three animals will be allowed some time. If this 4th animal, with its 10 horns, is destroyed and Daniel's picture can be understood as a refinement of Revelation, then again the other animals that came out of the sea together must also exist at the time of the destruction of the 4th animal.

This is possible - in my opinion - only if the remnants of the 3 animals exist at the time the 4th animal is destroyed. It must happen quickly, in a matter of months and before the end.

So these are the reasons why I reject any large-scale - overlapping ~~generations~~ of empire.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PetrW

@nicolaou

If I were to evaluate the events concerning the death of the Egyptian children without taking into account any supernatural event, the "logic" of the events is not unlike what we know from other events: one nation enslaves another, commits barbaric crimes, including the murder of children, and after a certain period of time, when the oppression reaches an unbearable situation, that death by fighting the oppressors is no different from death by starvation or slave labor, there is a violent revolt. The oppressed will turn against all real or perceived oppressors. Very often, then, violent actions are accompanied by revenge even on innocents and lead to bestiality...

If God does not exist, then the question of theodicey is useless. The evil of e.g. natural disasters is a "higher power" that can be prevented to some extent (not building houses in floodplains, building dams or fighting climate change). Evil that comes from humans can be eliminated by police, courts or the military. Diplomacy or military alliances are then supposed to have a "deterrent" role against potential invaders. Wars have been, are and will be. Diseases were, are and will be, but much of it, we have learned to manage.

From this (simple but understandable) point of view, you are right, I don't feel the need to discuss the issue of theodicy at all either. Everything can also be explained without God.

But I also understand that if you allow for the existence of God (the theodicey question itself presupposes that the existence of some rational, supernatural being is at least hypothetically admitted), then you put yourself in a less advantageous position. Clearly, one who addresses the theodicy question is working with some notion of God (not necessarily Christian ) that the opponent should - at the very least - accept as part of the proposed answer. It follows then that the plausibility of the solution then (perhaps!?) rests on intellectual ability rather than on the actual solution...

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PetrW

@nicolaou

Interesting challenge! I'm just a bit puzzled by the fact that if I'm to address the question of the relationship between God and Evil, what do you mean by "supernatural"?

Don't worry, it's not an evasive maneuver to absolve myself of responsibility!

Try writing your most pressing accusation with respect to God as part of your response as well. My point is just to understand your criticisms more. One last question: are you willing to read long texts? Because theodicey's question is indeed very difficult and there are many counter-arguments to deal with...

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PetrW

Nicolaou: He didn't show much goodness to thousands of Egyptian kids when he had them killed in their beds did he?

*

According to Ex. 1:22, Pharaoh commanded every male newborn to be killed. The story then unfolds as we all know it. If I don't want to comment on theodicey's question (I can address it!) (why does God allow evil and if evil is even committed by God himself?), then the subsequent death of the Egyptian firstborn children, would even the score...tooth for tooth, eye for eye, newborn for newborn...? But I don't think it was. I'm just suggesting that simply considering the context is enough to make it very hard to side with someone... And at the same time: your reaction is largely justified. God and Evil is indeed a very pressing issue...

Although there are so few, terribly few, reasons for believing in a loving God, I still think God was right to act at the time. I can "rationalize" it for you, but I guess in the end, it still comes down to: do I want to believe or do I not want to believe...

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@aqwsed12345

I'm not Catholic. But having read several Catholic commentaries on Revelation, your explanation of Babylon is good apologetics. I don't think the RCC is Babylon directly, or that the RCC is Babylon along with others, as JWs interpret it.

I will try to finish the text that relates to my view of Babylon's identity. So far it is a torso. And I don't enjoy writing...

62

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran in

revelation 17:8-11,12-14. revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3. revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21. revelation 15:2;20:4. what beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?

what beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the motb is given out?.

what beast is the 8th king?.

PetrW

@Duran

Duran: In both cases it should be noted that it is AFTER the coming out of the abyss/death-stroke being healed that that is the time people are said to worship/admire the beast and that none of those who do so are written in the book of life.

PW: I don't think that's quite accurate: the Beast of 13:8 has people worshipping it who are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, just like the Beast of 17:8. To me, this is just another argument for the Beast of 13 and 17 being one and the same...?