thinker

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Posts by thinker

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  28

  Personals

  by jayhawk1 in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  i thought a discussion about personal ads would be fun.

  i have dated many women by many different methods.

  except i have never looked for women at a bar.

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  thinker

  Way to go Jayhawk!
  Yes, I posted an ad. Got a reply, met 10 days later. Got engaged in 6 days. And married within 2 months of posting the ad.
  Best thing that ever happened to me.
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  22

  Victims of Groupthink

  by larc in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  groupthink,.

  before i begin, i want to acknowledge two people who drew out the implications of the findings of social psychology in understanding the dynamics of the culture of the jehovah's witnesses.

  jang offered some exellent information on this subject.

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  thinker

  Here's the bad news. The members of the group can become so homgeneous in their thinking that they act as one individual rather than as distinct individuals.

  My wife commented the other night about how, as a JW, hardly anyone would call her by her name. Usually, they would just start talking and not address her by name as an individual. Anyone else experience the no-name thing?
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  221

  The meeting did not go well.

  by Danni in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it would have taken more much more time to tell it all.

  he told us the meeting would began as soon as the other brothers arrived.

  danni: i will give you two.

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  thinker

  It seems to me that when someone is supporting a policy that cannot be reasonably defended, they often resort to personal attacks (as evidenced by speakerphone man and a handful of posters on this thread).
  As I see it, Danni went to investigate a POLICY. The congregation and the elders just happened to be the most convenient place to do this. It was not a personal vendetta against anyone.
  I admire her for trying to help innocent people. Cops do this when they're off-duty all the time. If it's OK to stop a robbery off-duty, then whats wrong with this?
  This policy stinks! Innocent people are threatened so that the WT corporation can maintain a good public image. Meanwhile, the wolves are given a slap on the wrist and returned to the flock. Where are all the JW defenders on this issue? THE POLICY CANNOT BE DEFENDED. Their only solution is to ignore it or attack the person who pointed it out. What gets me is some ex-JWs seem willing to help them.
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  16

  What makes the GB different?

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what makes the gb different than other wt members?.

  this seems to suggest that because the wt has told you some truth they are worthy of your complete confidence that everything they say is the truth.

  russell explained his "enlightenment" like this:.

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  thinker

  What makes the GB different than other WT members?

  JW's who begin to doubt the teachings of the WT are encouraged to "remember where you first learned the truth". This seems to suggest that because the WT has told you SOME truth they are worthy of your complete confidence that EVERYTHING they say is the truth.

  Russell explained his "enlightenment" like this:
  

  "Brought up a Presbyterian, indoctrinated from the Catechism, and being naturally of an inquiring mind, I fell a ready prey to the logic of infidelity, as soon as I began to think for myself. But that which at first threatened to be the utter shipwreck of faith in God and the Bible, was, under God's providence, overruled for good, and merely wrecked my confidence in human creeds and systems of Bible misinterpretations.

  I was led gradually to see though each of the creeds contained some elements of truth, they were, on the whole, misleading and contradictory of God's Word. Among other theories, stumbled upon Adventism. Seemingly by accident, one evening I dropped into a dusty, dingy hall in Allegheny, Pa., where I had heard that religious services were held, to see if the handful who met there had anything more sensible to offer than the creeds of the great churches. There, for the first time, I heard something of the views of Second Adventism, by Jonas Wendell, long since deceased. Thus I confess indebtedness to Adventists as well as to other denominations. "

  Clearly, Russell did not accept ALL the teachings of "Adventists as well as to other denominations". He did NOT "remember where he first learned the truth". Why then should the rank and file JWs accept ALL the teachings of the GB?

  By their own admission they are "imperfect men". However, they claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. This guidance is what gives them authority over the other members.

  How did this guidance come about?

  Seemingly by accident, one evening I dropped into a dusty, dingy hall in Allegheny, Pa., where I had heard that religious services were held... What I heard sent me to my Bible to study with more zeal and care than ever before, and I shall ever thank the Lord for the leading; for although Adventism helped me to no single truth, it did help me greatly in the unlearning of errors, and thus prepared me for the Truth.

  It would seem that investigating other beliefs and indivdual bible study is what the Holy Spirit has in mind!

  Was Russell alone in being guided by the spirit? No.
  

  And here I gratefully mention assistance rendered by Brothers George Stetson and George Storrs, the latter the Editor of The bible Examiner, both now deceased. The study of the Word of God with these dear brethren led step by step into greener pastures and brighter hopes for the world, ...

  Thus passed the years 1868-1872. The years following, to 1876, were years of continued growth in grace and in knowledge on the part of the handful of Bible students with whom I met in Allegheny. We progressed from our first crude and indefinite ideas of Restitution to clearer understanding of the details; but God's due time for clear light had not yet come.

  So, the Holy Spirit can lead you to see the truth in other religions, then by independently studying the bible, then by studying with others ("George Stetson and George Storrs" and "the handful of bible students"). These others seem to have been led by the Holy Spirit as well.
  Even more people were to be led by the Spirit:
  

  It was about January of 1876 that my attention was especially drawn to the subject of prophetic time, as it refers to these doctrines and hopes. It came about in this way: I received a paper called, The Herald of the Morning, sent by its Editor, Mr. N. H. Barbour. When I opened it, I at once identified it with Adventism from the picture on its cover; and I examined it with some curiosity to see what time the Adventists would next set for the burning of the world. But judge of my surprise and gratification when I learned from its contents that the Editor was beginning to get his eyes open on the subjects that for some years had so greatly rejoiced our hearts in our class in Allegheny--that the object of our Lord's Return is not to destroy, but to bless all the families of the earth: and that His Coming would be thief-like, and not in flesh, but as a spirit being, invisible to men; and that the gathering of His Church and the separation of the "wheat" from the "tares" would progress in the end of this Age without the world's being aware of it.

  Where did Russell look for enlightenment?
  

  Anxious to learn from any quarter, whatever God had to teach, I at once wrote to Mr. Barbour,...

  Would it not be proper for every JW to do the same?

  Is guidance by the Holy Spirit guaranteed to continue indefinately? Will it lead all to the same understanding? No.
  

  About this time, too, I was much encouraged by the accession of Mr. A. D. Jones, then a clerk in my employ in Pittsburgh--a young man of activity and promise, who soon developed into an active and appreciated colaborer in the Harvest work, and is remembered by some of our older readers. Mr. Jones ran well for a time; but ambition or something else eventually worked utter shipwreck of his faith, and left us...

  But while thus helped to clearer views and brighter hopes, and while I diligently endeavored to help others, the spring of 1878 proved far from a blessing to Mr. Barbour and to many under his influence. Rejecting the plain, simple solution presented above, Mr. Barbour seemed to feel that he must of necessity get up something new...

  I withdrew entirely from The Herald of the Morning, and from further fellowship with Mr. Barbour.

  Mr. Barbour and Mr. Adams, having cast off the Wedding Garment of Christ's Righteousness, went out of the light into the darkness of the world...

  This would seem to indicate that the guidance given to Russell was superior to that of the others. He denies this in the same article:

  No, dear friends; we claim nothing of superiority; nor do we aspire to exalt ourself in the estimation of our brethren of the Household of Faith,...

  We have only Russell's word that he alone was guided by the spirit.
  Still others were to be guided away from the Watchtower:

  We need to give these particulars because of certain misrepresentations and one-sided and partial statements of acts which were afterward published and circulated in tract form by Mr. Paton, who also became later an advocate of the "other Gospel,...

  Who was now guiding these men, once guided by the Holy Spirit?
  

  Do not be deceived by the agents whom the Adversary often uses. In this matter he will be as cunning as in his presentation of the misrepresentations of Truth.

  If these men, once trusted to be guided by the Holy Spirit, were now in Satan's hands; what makes the current GB any less likely to be deceived? Would it not be wise to question everything they say? In more modern times there have been members of the GB who were removed and even disfellowshipped. This would seem to indicate caution when reading what the GB has written. Clearly, the Spirit's guidance is not guaranteed to last forever. If Russell was not "superior", how do you know it wasn't he that was deceived by Satan?
  I would urge all JWs to follow Russell's example. Think for yourself, be "anxious to learn from any quarter whatever God has to teach", let the Holy Spirit guide you and do not blindly follow "human creeds and systems of Bible misinterpretations".
  Give me one good reason not to question the teachings of these "imperfect men".
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  26

  Proof the WT is God's Org?

  by mindfield in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i recall a conversation i once had with my jw uncle about the many doctrinal flip-flops, the blood issue, and how some in the cong.

  treated me like @w#$@ even though i was never baptized.. funny, the only thing he could defend himself with was "well, do you know of any other religion that insists on god's name?

  " i didn't know of any, so i coudn't really say yes.

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  thinker

  Mindfield,
  JW's used to print articles in the newspapers. They had a radio program for a while. Both these were canceled. Now they have stopped the subscriptions to WT and awake. How do these actions enhance the "spreading of the good news"? Other religions make use of every media available.

  Will Power,
  Every big drop in WTS membership is explained as the "separating". That explaination does not really determine which are wheat and which are chaff.
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  26

  Proof the WT is God's Org?

  by mindfield in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i recall a conversation i once had with my jw uncle about the many doctrinal flip-flops, the blood issue, and how some in the cong.

  treated me like @w#$@ even though i was never baptized.. funny, the only thing he could defend himself with was "well, do you know of any other religion that insists on god's name?

  " i didn't know of any, so i coudn't really say yes.

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  thinker

  Mindfield,
  Concerning the name "Jehovah's Witnesses":
  According to instructions Russell left behind, his successor to the presidency would share power with an editorial committee and with the Watch Tower corporation's board of directors, whom Russell had appointed "for life." But vice president Joseph Franklin ("Judge") Rutherford soon set about concentrating all organizational authority in his own hands. A skilled lawyer who had served as Russell's chief legal advisor, he combined legal prowess with what opponents undoubtedly saw as a Machiavellian approach to internal corporate politics. Thus he used a loophole in their appointment to unseat the majority of the Watch Tower directors without calling a membership vote. And he even had a subordinate summon the police into the Society's Brooklyn headquarters offices to break up their board meeting and evict them from the premises.
  After securing the headquarters complex and the sect's corporate entities, Rutherford turned his attention to the rest of the organization. By gradually replacing locally elected elders with his own appointees, he managed to transform a loose collection of semi-autonomous democratically-run congregations into a tight-knit organizational machine run from his office. Some local congregations broke away, forming such Russellite splinter groups as the Chicago Bible Students, the Dawn Bible Students, and the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement, all of which continue to this day. But most Bible Students remained under his control, and Rutherford renamed them "Jehovah's Witnesses" in 1931, to distinguish them from these other groups.

  ps
  you won't find this explaination in the proclaimer's book.
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  49

  God is editor of the WT

  by Earnest in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in an earlier thread reference was made to a court case in which fred franz stated that jehovah god was editor of the "watch tower".

  as this quotation is often used to support the allegation that jws believe the wt is inspired of god i thought it would be of wider interest to provide the relevant court record for general consideration.. the court case itself was in 1940 and was olin moyle against fred franz and others and the wtbts.

  just so that you know who is who, hayden covington was attorney for the defendants and walter bruchhausen was attorney for the plaintiff.

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  thinker

  Earnest,
  You said

  I agree with you that Franz, Rutherford, and current Watchtower leaders claim that God is actively guiding them but I doubt they consider that applies to everything that appears in The Watchtower.

  This is incorrect, as shown in Aug. 1, 2001 WT:
  

  First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete con-fidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jeho-vah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.”

  and
  

  In fact, how can a Chris-tian be in oneness with fellow believers if he only believes or accepts a certain part of “the faith”? ... Rather, we should be interested in taking advantage of all of Jeho-vah’s provisions through his organization...

  Some of the bible was written by the apostles. Who do the GB compare themselves to?
  Russell was said to have "revived the great truths taught by Jesus and the apostles." (see Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, p. 17)

  Christian elders govern by using their "abilities to direct" (Greek ky-ber-NE seis) in providing leadership and guidance in local congregations. (1 Corinthians 12:28) But the apostles and other elders in Jerusalem served as a body to give guidance and counsel to all the congregations. (Acts 15:1,2,27-29) Today, therefore, a governing body of elders provides spiritual oversight for Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide.
  (Watchtower; December 15, 1989; p. 21)

  Confident of the loyalty of his faithful creatures, Jehovah delegates authority. So does his Son. From among his anointed followers, "the faithful and discreet slave," he has chosen a few to serve as a visible governing body. (Matthew 24:45) In the first century, this group was composed of the apostles and several older men in Jerusalem.
  (Watchtower; Jan. 15, 1990; p. 26)

  They have a modern Governing Body of older Christian men from various parts of the earth who give needed oversight to the worldwide activities of God's people. these men, like the apostles and older men in Jerusalem in the first century, are anointed members of the faithful and discreet slave class designated by Jesus to care for all of his Kingdom interests here upon earth. History has proved that they can be trusted to follow the direction of the holy spirit and that they do not rely on human wisdom in teaching the flock of God the ways of genuine peace.
  (The Watchtower; Dec. 15, 1989; p. 6)

  WT 15/01/94, p. 16
  In the past, Jehovah ruled and revealed truths through individuals, such as prophets, kings and apostles. Jesus said that during his royal presence, he would identify a faithful body of followers, a 'faithful and discreet slave'. In 1919 this slave was identified as the remnant of anointed Christians. Since then, as represented by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, it has been the center of theocracy on earth.

  "However, all person who have love for the truth are invited to examine this claim that Jehovah's Witnesses really do have the truth. In doing so, they should imitate what those persons in the first century did who listened to the preaching of the apostles: They received the word with the great eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."
  (Watchtower July 1, 1979, p. 25)

  WT June 1, 82:
  "Today, a remnant of this 'faithful slave' is still alive on earth. They occupy a position similar to that of Paul...when that apostle said of the wonderful truths...:"It is to us God has revealed them through his spirit."

  Only when things go terribly wrong will the GB call themselves "imperfect men".
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  60

  My interview with Jehovah's Witnesses

  by Danni in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know i said i wouldn't post here again because of the way i made everyone upset over alanf,but i thought you all might want to know what took place and i do need some advice.. .

  yesterday i took a little time out to talk with jehovah's witnesses.

  at first they were more than happy to answer my questions.

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  thinker

  YYM,
  He's what the WTS says:
  "It may be possible that some who were guilty of child molestation were or are now serving as elders, ministerial servants, or regular or special pioneers. Others may have been guilty of child molestation before they were baptized. The bodies of elders should not query individuals. However, the body of elders should discuss this matter and give the Society a report on anyone who is currently serving or who formerly served in a Society-appointed position in your congregation who is known to have been guilty of child molestation in the past.

  TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS March 14, 1997 Page 3

  In your report please answer the following questions: How long ago did he commit the sin? What was his age at the time? What was the age of his victim(s)? Was it a one-time occurrence or a practice? If it was a practice, to what extent? How is he viewed in the community and by the authorities? Has he lived down any notoriety in the community? Are members of the congregation aware of what took place? How do they and/or his victim(s) view him? Has he ever been disfellowshipped, reproved, counseled, or otherwise dealt with? If he has moved to another congregation, please identify the congregation to which he has moved. Was that congregation advised of his past conduct of child molestation, and, if so, when? [If you have not advised them, this should be done now, and you should send a copy of your letter to the Society in a "Special Blue" envelope.] This information should be sent to the Society along with any other observations that the body of elders has. Please send this to the Society in the "Special Blue" envelope so that the factors involved may be given due consideration; this information is not to be made available to those not involved.
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  60

  My interview with Jehovah's Witnesses

  by Danni in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know i said i wouldn't post here again because of the way i made everyone upset over alanf,but i thought you all might want to know what took place and i do need some advice.. .

  yesterday i took a little time out to talk with jehovah's witnesses.

  at first they were more than happy to answer my questions.

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  thinker

  Danni,
  It's clear you know that you've been lied to. What makes you think more questions will get you straight answers?

  To YoYo Mama,
  As an active JW would you be kind enough to explain to Danni why JW's first must confront a brother/sister privately (within the congregation) about an offense and why you need 2 witnesses or a confession for the person to be found guilty? What would be the punishment for molesting? Once a molester confesses or is found guilty are JW's encouraged to proceed with legal action? Do the elders report information on molesters in states where it is not required by law?
  Thanks,

  thinker
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  62

  Is Watchtower Literature inspired?

  by YoYoMama in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the question.

  is all watchtower articles, books, etc.

  inspired by god as the bible was?

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  thinker

  YoYo,
  If thr President's spokesman REALLY screwed up he'd be fired! The WTS was fired long ago. WT and Awake articles come mostly from old articles. New light is accomplished by a 2/3 vote. Read Ray Franz books, he was there after all.
  Oops! Forgot you aren't allowed.