The 8/22/01 Awake recommends therapy and professional help for those with PTSD. There is no shortage of recommendations for medical assistance in the WT Publications anx I'm willing to give most adult men who are elders the benefit of the doubt, using just a little common sense, when it would be prudent to suggest/assist with providing professional help. There is a brother at my hall who usually makes off the wall comments who has mental problems. The elders have even accompanied him to the hospital and make sure he is taking his medication regularly; otherwise, he will not be called on.
Posts by Ethos
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111WT Elders school: The WTS has progressed from just plain stupid to dangerously stupid
by sir82 infresh off the recent 1-day elders school.
to keep things readable i'll post "highlights" over the next several days in different topics.
point 1: they have progressed from "just plain" stupid to dangerously stupid.. .
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111
WT Elders school: The WTS has progressed from just plain stupid to dangerously stupid
by sir82 infresh off the recent 1-day elders school.
to keep things readable i'll post "highlights" over the next several days in different topics.
point 1: they have progressed from "just plain" stupid to dangerously stupid.. .
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Ethos
Not for Christ's brothers. "You received free, give free." Except in Christendom where there's no way one paid minister can shepherd the whole church and there's nothing even close to training for handling sensitive situations like this. Sure, criticize JWs, you have that right as we are wrong about things, but this misleading, positive contrast with Christendom that is being regurgitated, is glossing over what is an even grander problem affecting BILLIONS of more people. A want of actual shepherding in the churches.
Is a typical church with one pastor being shepherded as they scripturally should be?
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111
WT Elders school: The WTS has progressed from just plain stupid to dangerously stupid
by sir82 infresh off the recent 1-day elders school.
to keep things readable i'll post "highlights" over the next several days in different topics.
point 1: they have progressed from "just plain" stupid to dangerously stupid.. .
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Ethos
Romans 15:4 "For all things written aforetime for our instruction, that through our endurance and COMFORT from the scriptures we might have hope." If you take a superficial viewpoint of Job, yeah it's depressing and using the account may come across as nonsensical. But it's similar to the Psalms...or a Victorian novel. Through the adversity and perseverance of others, we teach ourselves how to cope and handle trying situations. EVERY situation does not call for professional help, therefore it shouldnt be expected that they suggest that this be mentioned in such a case. But, as spiritual overseers, it is their responsibility (primarily) to be of any spiritual assistance they can to the congregation.
Obviously the elders can use their discernment and recommend professional help. The WTS doesnt have to tell them every little common sense thing to do. I think the point of the video was illustrating how elders can use the Bible inffectively and perhaps pour salt on an open wound.
Isn't it interesting that the elders are so heavily criticized for trying to do what they are SUPPOSED to do (according to the Bible). Nevermind the fact that they do this WILLINGLY and without pay, unlike 90%of religious leaders today.
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529
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos ini agreed yesterday to engage in the '607' topic.
i've read numerous threads and am well aware that this topic has been addressed and dissected quite thoroughly.
therefore, if you are uninterested in participating, that's fine.
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Ethos
Contradicting yourself now are we? Everyone go back to page 1 and read post 4. You will see that I quoted his entire response save one or two sentences and he's stating I ignored the bulk of his argument. Then he says he's talking about Jeremiah 29 when he is responding to a rebuttal to a premise about Jeremiah 25 and his entire response was defending his interpretation of the 70 years, which is only mentioned in Jeremiah 25. And if you believe the same secular evidence is used for 587 and 539, then it is you who needs to do research. Ok...done replying forreal this time. Out of posts.
So heres a question for Jeffros: Was the argument about Jeremiah 25 or 29? Is the 70 years of servitude, the core of the subject, mentioned in Jeremiah 25 or 29? Were we discussing at any time any reference made in Jeremiah 29? Did I or did I not quote your entire response on page 1 save one or two sentences? Sounds like somebody needs a cop out for their blatantly erroneous errors and shaky conclusions arrived at without premises. Jeremiah 25 is ADDRESSING the entire nation and saying they will serve Neb for70 years. Jeremiah 29 is referring to a completely different supposed exile and mentions the 70 years. So what? Its a weak argument either way. There are two exiles. Proving one started before the 70 year servitude proves squat. Oh, this is such a laughable attempt at defending.one's argument. Jeremiah 29 is about the exile that took place before Jerusalem's destruction.
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529
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos ini agreed yesterday to engage in the '607' topic.
i've read numerous threads and am well aware that this topic has been addressed and dissected quite thoroughly.
therefore, if you are uninterested in participating, that's fine.
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Ethos
You need to go back and reread..Jeffro specifically stated Jeremiah 25:8-11 and responded to my response to premise one which is also referencing Jeremiah 25. Im not sure if it would be wise to start a thread when I can barely keep up with this one. Maybe when I am alloted more posts, though. I'll respond to everything in the afternoon. Also its not circular reasoning because the secular evidence used for 539 is not the same as 587. As if that red herring holds any weight though...as if JWs dont use secular resourcs in most of their publications.
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529
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos ini agreed yesterday to engage in the '607' topic.
i've read numerous threads and am well aware that this topic has been addressed and dissected quite thoroughly.
therefore, if you are uninterested in participating, that's fine.
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Ethos
All the time I have today....be back later
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529
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos ini agreed yesterday to engage in the '607' topic.
i've read numerous threads and am well aware that this topic has been addressed and dissected quite thoroughly.
therefore, if you are uninterested in participating, that's fine.
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Ethos
Quote from notjustyet: "Your main argument was that when the temple utensils were returned then the 70 years ended. I asked you where did you get this in the Bible as I can find any evidence in the Bible that the 70 years ends once the utensils are returned. You have yet to provide that scripture. I even pointed you to a prophecy in Jeremiah that totally refutes your argument and that points out that the utensils will only be returned two years after the 70 years. You then told me that this prophecy was false because it was from Hananiah. I corrected you in your statement as Jeremiah ratified this prophecy therefore it was not false." (END OF QUOTE)
Actually, I'd like to thank you for referencing the false prophecy by Hannaniah in Jeremiah 28. In fact, it only argue my case. Let me show you, how all of Jeremiah 28 is a false prophecy, even though Jeremiah did say "Amen", because he momentarily perceived it to be a message from a true prophet sent by Jehovah. Read verses 15-18 "And Jeremiah the prophet went on to say to Han·a·ni′ah the prophet: “Listen, please, O Han·a·ni′ah! Jehovah has not sent you, but you yourself have caused this people to trust in a falsehood. 16 Therefore this is what Jehovah has said, ‘Look! I am sending you away from off the surface of the ground. This year you yourself must die, for you have spoken outright revolt against Jehovah.’”
17 So Han·a·ni′ah the prophet died in that year, in the seventh month.." None of what Hannaniah was actually a sentiment or a statement on behalf of Jehovah, and he was punished for it. But his false prophecy is interesting because it completely solidifies my argument.Jeremiah 28:1 "2 “This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said, ‘I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon. 3 Within two full years more I am bringing back to this place all the utensils of the house of Jehovah that Neb·u·chad·nez′zar the king of Babylon took from this place that he might bring them to Babylon .’”
So you see, even the Jews associated the breaking of the yoke of the king of Babylon with the returning of the temple utensils. This is exactly what I have previously stated. Even though the prophecy turned out to be false and he was not an actual envoy for Jehovah, it shows that there was still an association between the two. You asked for a scripture connecting Jeremiah 25 and Jeremiah 51:
Jeremiah 25:17 "And I proceeded to take the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and to make all the nations drink to whom Jehovah had sent me: 18 namely, Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and her kings, her princes, to make them a devastated place, an object of astonishment...For this is what Jehovah the God of Israel said to me: “Take this cup of the wine of rage out of my hand, and you must make all the nations to whom I am sending you drink it. 16 And they must drink and shake back and forth and act like crazed men because of the sword that I am sending among them.."
Jeremiah 51:7 "Babylon has been a golden cup in the hand of Jehovah, she making all the earth drunk. From her wine the nations have drunk. That is why the nations keep acting crazed."
Besides the symbolic, metaphorical "wine" connecting the two passages, they are both about the punishment of Babylon for its error and it's destruction it caused to the nations, as well as the destruction it will soon suffer.
Jeremiah 25:12, 13 "‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de′ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite. 13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it.."
Jeremiah 51:1 "This is what Jehovah has said: “Here I am rousing up against Babylon and against the inhabitants of Leb-ka′mai a ruinous wind; 2 and I will send to Babylon winnowers who will certainly winnow her and who will make her land empty; for they will actually prove to be against her on all sides in the day of calamity...For clear to the heavens her judgment has reached, and it has been lifted up to the cloudy skies."
The connections are there, plain and obvious to all. I could even quote mainstream Christian sources that link the two passages as they are almost identical. Note: No interpretation offered, simply showing how the two passages are interlinked and similar. Jeremiah 51 renders the judgement against Babylon for taking the temple utensils, Hannaniah confirms that that was a common belief among the Jews, and Jeremiah 25 is linked to Jeremiah 51 harmonizing the sequence of events.
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529
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos ini agreed yesterday to engage in the '607' topic.
i've read numerous threads and am well aware that this topic has been addressed and dissected quite thoroughly.
therefore, if you are uninterested in participating, that's fine.
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Ethos
Quote from notjustyet: "I understand how hung up JWs are about 607BCE, becaue if it isn't the right date then neither is 1914. But I ask you, why is 1914 so important? Because it's the date Jesus Christ became king you may say, it was the beginning of his invsible presence. Yet JWs never taught this until 1943! (See Proclaimers book page 46,47, 133 footnote). They believed his invisible presence began in 1874 and and Armageddon was to be in 1914. Now (since 1943) they say his invisible presence had begun in 1914 and Armageddon would come within one generation. However, how many years have passed since 1914? Almost 100! The generation that saw 1914 have now passed away, so now an overlapping generation has had to be devised to still make 1914 fit. Don't you see the lack of logic here?
607BCE and 1914 are inextricably tied. One will not work without the other."
607 is selected because it the only date of destruction for Jerusalem that will not undermine the prophecied 70 year servitude and exile in Babylon to appease conjectured secular evidence. 1914 can still be arrived at without the "Seven Times". Although it is used as a primary Biblical premise for arriving at the 1914 conclusion, it can still be arrived at with other concrete methods. Thus, the statement: "607BCE and 1914 are inextricably tied. One will not work without the other." is false.
Quote from jwfacts: "First, prove that Daniel 9 should have a secondary fulfilment. There is nothing to suggest so, other than your desire (or the desire of the people that supplied you with what you believe) to want to think the time you live in is important." (END OF QUOTE)
I have never asserted that Daniel 9 should have a secondary fulfillment. In fact, I never appealed to Daniel 9 as a part of my argument, so I'm completely unsure how you arrived at this erroneous conclusion of what I was asserting. Perhaps you should go back and reread, and you will find that the only people who even used Daniel 9 were those who are supporting 609-date.
Second, you are using circular reasoning. You want to take secular history to provide you with the dates, and then overlay some random interpretation onto it that contradicts that very secular history you took the dates from. (END OF QUOTE)
There has been no use of circular reasoning. I have not interpreted any secular data, I have only QUOTED from secular publications. Again, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills, because you are reading into things that are not there. Jeez-oh-peez, did you even read what I actually said?
Quote from Crisis of Conscience: "Ethos, what are the chances of you answering back on your other threads?"
I will do so when I am alloted more posts (presumably more than 10 per day).
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529
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos ini agreed yesterday to engage in the '607' topic.
i've read numerous threads and am well aware that this topic has been addressed and dissected quite thoroughly.
therefore, if you are uninterested in participating, that's fine.
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Ethos
Quote from Jeffro: "When Jeremiah wrote to Jews already in Babylon, he said to them that they would not return to Judea until after Babylon's 70 years, as indicated in most Bible translations*. In JW chronology, this was in 614BCE (594BCE in actual history). It would make no sense to tell exiles already in Babylon (which was most of the Jews) that they will be there for 70 years starting from some unspecified future event.
Conversely, once Babylon became the dominant world power, all the surrounding nations were subject to Babylon. Jeremiah's letter gave the Jews already in Babylon a frame of reference in regard to when Babylon's 70 years began, and therefore when it would end." (END OF QUOTE)
Incorrect. Your contextual conclusion regarding Jeremiah 25 and to whom it was addressed is completely incorrect. Jeremiah 25 is not speaking to the exiles already in Babylon. It is speaking to the entire nation of Judea. Letting Jeremiah speak for himself: "The word that occurred to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judahinthe fourth year of Je·hoi′a·kim the son of Jo·si′ah, the king of Judah, that is, the first year of Neb·u·chad·rez′zar the king of Babylon; 2 which Jeremiah the prophet spoke concerning all the people of Judah and concerning all the inhabitants of Jerusalem , saying:
3 “From the thirteenth year of Jo·si′ah the son of A′mon, the king of Judah, and down to this day, these twenty-three years the word of Jehovah has occurred to me, and I kept speaking to YOU people, rising up early and speaking, but YOU did not listen. 4 And Jehovah sent to YOU all his servants the prophets, rising up early and sending [them], but YOU did not listen, neither did YOU incline YOUR ear to listen.."This argument is full of conclusions without support from premises. But the entire argument was enervated because of his false assumption that Jeremiah 25's frame of reference was to the exiled Jews already in Babylon. I think it shows quite clearly what happens when people read into the scriptures, what they'd like to, to support their conclusions instead of reading the scriptures first and then leaving their conclusion.
A weak, unscriptural, torpid rebuttal. No supported premises for several the aforementioned conclusions. You have got to do better, Jeffro.
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529
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos ini agreed yesterday to engage in the '607' topic.
i've read numerous threads and am well aware that this topic has been addressed and dissected quite thoroughly.
therefore, if you are uninterested in participating, that's fine.
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Ethos
Hmmm, nothing but insulting and blog peddling and a zealous, yet misguided 'rebuttal' to my points. All you are doing is repeating the same old 607 claims, but not proving anything. I could do the same thing. Look: 607 is right, 1914 is right, 587 is wrong, etc. etc. I suspect the argumentation (or lack thereof) are due to the fact that these are not typical, rehashed from Thirdwitness website, pro-607 arguments. I didnt even get to respond to the.'archaeological evidence' used for 587, but I doubt it will be even necessary since all you ard going to do is just repeat that its wrong over and over again. Ha! Imagine if these weak responses were thrown into a pro-587 thread by a JW.
I'll take my leave and wait for Londo to show up with some honest scriptural answers. Not the "he cant be king of Babylon even though the Bible and secular evidence has been brought forth to show that he most definitely can.
And thanks for bringing up the Babylonian reigns,, but.it didnt address anything I said but was merely a.rehash of.something you believe supports.587. It is getting comical at this.point.