Posts by prologos

241

Another generation....

by joey jojo in

it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?

the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.

the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.

TD: "--There are quite a number of places in JW literature where it is strongly implied that his would be true of those who left the faith. I'm not sure if I've seen the same wording with regard to those whose only contact with JW's was incidental (?) -- Was there not a wt teaching some time ago, that --if you died during a "judgement period" unrepentantly, ( died, just after refusing to take a wt/awake offer for example), your were not be resurrected?

The existence of "Other Sheep" 2 1/2 centuries ago would constitute a third distinct class of Christians who attain neither of the two salvations that JW's teach that the Bible holds out for Christians. -- How so, please give details. was not the wt doctrine that those not of the "little flock" would come back to earth, option B?

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

I M: "--not naturally and logically lead to the idea that that first cause is a complex, super-intelligent person. A very simple non-intelligent, non-conscious, inanimate entity is far more plausible. Have you heard of Occam's Razor?

Yes we have, and the desire for simple answers is not only for the mentally lazy, but, is it not true that ongoing research shows that nature is ever more complex at the macro and micro level? so: there might be very simple beauty in the creation process, but it must have many deep-rooted complexities, and yes, the creator might not have an overly complex psychiatrist's -goldmine-personality.

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160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

Terry

What is a Universe but a set or category inclusive of "ALL"?

(ALL of something vs. ALL of nothing.)

Perry tells us that God exists OUTSIDE of the universe and the spacetime continuum.
If a Universe is ALL there is, how can anybody or anything exist outside

Interesting that in German, , the Universe is actually called "das ALL", the word you used. The argument is however not only about the Universe, the ALL now, but the conditions prior to its existence. The ALL had clearly a different form before the beginning of space and matter, that we experience as we move through time. If you read the works of Krauss, Penrose, you will discover they do not define the void, the "nothing" before our concrete universe as truly empty. By extension, the condition "outside" our expanding universe might not be truly empty, an absolute void either. We might not be the only universe in the cosmos either, get used to the idea.It is within the realm of currentthought that what we consider "all" is within a greater cosmos. Perry's idea is a simple one by comparison,- just us and a creator, he/she, having used some of his energy and time to cook up our world?

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

Terry: "--The 1st contains absolutely NOTHING at all. Never and always nothing.--" sounds almost like the mathematical "de Sitter Universe"

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

C" "--We're just unsure of the .mechanisms involved. and it is this ongoing uncertainty that opens the way to the thinking, that something not as uncertain as us was in a remote way involved in the beginning, the origin, the one and only un-caused cause.

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

cofty: "First christians failed to explain why the bible is full of flaws, contradictions and deplorable ethics.

Then they lost the argument about evolution.

Now they retreat into cosmic origins and deism.

You pointed out a big change in the nature of the debate, and the subject at hand; whereas research on the bible is about an ancient, man-made book, and it's guessing at origins,-- but--the contemplation of the processes of life's developments, it's origin and then the existence of the cosmos, it's laws, energy, laws, that debate, research deals with another level of interest altogether, --nature's reality.

To pry understanding out of the big universe we live in, takes great work. why is it so hard to realise that it must have taken even greater work to create all this in the first place?

Deism, belief in a creator might not a last retreat but a first proposition.

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241

Another generation....

by joey jojo in

it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?

the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.

the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.

prologos

TD: "You have zero prospect of surviving an event you will never live to see. agreed, since the the GC and the GT are all "talking snake book" features; so I look at all this only as to prove the internal failures, inconsistencies of wt doctrine.The Great crowd only exists after Armageddon, perhaps even past the post-millennial final test, for they pronounce themselves as "saved" "--salvation we owe--"

and are supposed never dying, so they don't pay for their "sins" with their personal death, so they have to work at that for thousand years, so where is the ransom value in that. ? Pity the generation that shares time with the overlapping anointed groups.

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

Perry: "-- there is no such thing as before and after, just the eternal now.--" Well, the now might be moving along eternally, but by itself it is not eternal, just the opposite it has zero length. and if the movement of the now stops, like at the speed of light or with a black hole, time has not gone poof: " I am gone", it is alive and well in the surroundings, the observers. and the universe is not only expanding, it had an inflationary period, and is still accelerating with an excess,- or added energy. so, perhaps what you call "no time" is actually more time, but not at our disposal. time as an eternal now, but not at our disposal?

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

F: "--always--" the moment you think that, say that you accept , that time always existed. But time is not god, or love or light, as the bible says, but certainly a supposed creator would have all the time in and outside the world.

X: "--crashing --suns going supernova, --" The events you described are the best things that ever happened for us. It had to be big, it is not called the big bang for nothing. caring? well it is here because the first cause might not have to be caused .

160

Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry in

the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.

whatever begins to exist had a cause.

therefore the universe had a cause.

prologos

P: "--What Caused the Universe to exist?

GrrT "--Indeed, and what caused th Causer to exist?

M: "Not sure how that helps with Perry's problem here?

Mephis, --You introduced the very interesting term "linear time" not much different from one dimensional time, or the "arrow of time". What I like Perry to consider is that time is more pervasive than that, Any entity in stationary time would not be subject to the law of cause and effect, that our movement through time subjects us to. Time not as a flowing river, but an endless ocean, through which we move, surf (life riding a wave of energy), To quote he discredited bible," --Hovered over the [endless] water--"