the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
Perry quote: "--The simplest explanation is that space and time were manipulated --" there is no basis for that assertion.
WsIcm: "-- Why doesn't Occams Razor apply? because a supposed eternal, unchanging entity, not moving through time, does not need to shave.
it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
TD --wt August 15, 2009. page 8. .-- so, wt at one time calls these 12 tribes the anointed only, at another, the worldly, but Rev 7 and the quote above make it clear, that the tribes are bigger than the sealed, 144k, , but wt does not want to admit that their "earthly class", the 12 tribes, are "christians" or all "spiritual" Israelite. --For the rulers & priests, the anointed, to be sealed out of the general population, or more particularly from among the exceptional jws, both "classes" have to co-exists, and that is why both the overlapping anointed and the natural general mankind generation have to outlive this together, It is wt that generated these gross generation gyrations, both in length and composition. .
it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
TD: "The JW faith bases their salvific model on Revelation 7 where there are two and only two groups.
My reading gives 3 groups with wt explanation,
1) The 12 tribes of Israel, those with an earthly hope.
2) the 144k sealed out of those tribes (the sealed, anointed heavenly class since Pentecost/ Stephen.)
3) the great Crowd, that is saved, that comes out of the Great tribulation. fits the description of Rev 21 : "wiped every tear from their eyes--"
I thought you had in mind another 3rd group that wt implied to exist in the middle ages.
the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
P: "I do find it interesting that only since Einstein have we been thinking of space and time as a woven fabric. The bible likened it to a fabric back in the "bronze age":
actually, his analogy was more like rubber sheet, for gravity, or the expanding space of the universe as the surface of a pumping up balloon. (ask Tony, spandex becomes a bible topic only now) Isaiah 40: stretch the heavens out like a tent-". a fixed unfolding fabric, unlike the changing of size, and movement through time of the relativity equations.
P: "Some of the folks here are just having a hard time imagining an existence of any kind without time. Who says there was no time before the universe? Just because space and it's content is expanding through time at varying rates for ~14 billion earth years, getting bigger in the process, does not mean that the 4st dimension aka "time" did not exist prior to the big bang acceleration. You are confusing time with movement through time.
the farmville herald.
(farmville, va.), 19 aug. 1910. chronicling america: historic american newspapers.
lib.
WB: this looks like a serious contender for the America Cup at the time. Practising Tacking maneuvers as in changing doctrines?
L111, Joseph Smith's earlier vessels were the sturdy oak boats on which the 10 lost tribes of Israel came to America in ~ 700 BC. no?
it has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
TD: "--There are quite a number of places in JW literature where it is strongly implied that his would be true of those who left the faith. I'm not sure if I've seen the same wording with regard to those whose only contact with JW's was incidental (?) -- Was there not a wt teaching some time ago, that --if you died during a "judgement period" unrepentantly, ( died, just after refusing to take a wt/awake offer for example), your were not be resurrected?
The existence of "Other Sheep" 2 1/2 centuries ago would constitute a third distinct class of Christians who attain neither of the two salvations that JW's teach that the Bible holds out for Christians. -- How so, please give details. was not the wt doctrine that those not of the "little flock" would come back to earth, option B?
the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
I M: "--not naturally and logically lead to the idea that that first cause is a complex, super-intelligent person. A very simple non-intelligent, non-conscious, inanimate entity is far more plausible. Have you heard of Occam's Razor?
Yes we have, and the desire for simple answers is not only for the mentally lazy, but, is it not true that ongoing research shows that nature is ever more complex at the macro and micro level? so: there might be very simple beauty in the creation process, but it must have many deep-rooted complexities, and yes, the creator might not have an overly complex psychiatrist's -goldmine-personality.
the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
What is a Universe but a set or category inclusive of "ALL"?
(ALL of something vs. ALL of nothing.)
Perry tells us that God exists OUTSIDE of the universe and the spacetime continuum.
If a Universe is ALL there is, how can anybody or anything exist outside
Interesting that in German, , the Universe is actually called "das ALL", the word you used. The argument is however not only about the Universe, the ALL now, but the conditions prior to its existence. The ALL had clearly a different form before the beginning of space and matter, that we experience as we move through time. If you read the works of Krauss, Penrose, you will discover they do not define the void, the "nothing" before our concrete universe as truly empty. By extension, the condition "outside" our expanding universe might not be truly empty, an absolute void either. We might not be the only universe in the cosmos either, get used to the idea.It is within the realm of currentthought that what we consider "all" is within a greater cosmos. Perry's idea is a simple one by comparison,- just us and a creator, he/she, having used some of his energy and time to cook up our world?
