March 9, 1957
Posts by TMS
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10
Who are these people? Amnesian? bjc2read?
by gringojj inok we have recently had some people starting threads about the bethel couple and watchtowerfarm.org.
of course if this is a fake, then we have to wonder what is the motive behind it.
i may be looking into this too much but i looked at the 2 people who started posts on this subject.
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TMS
Amnesian is/was one the more articulate posters to grace this bandwidth. There are dozens of similar skill, knowledge and history who simply do not post much anymore for their own reasons. It's possible that nearly everything has already been said, documented, illustrated and argued. Now a largely younger generation of JWDites explore many of the same issues with varying degrees of comprehension.
tms
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23
Witnesses Sell Stolen Furniture to Feed Circuit Overseer
by TMS ini'm nena, the wife of tms, who used to post in this forum.
i'm posting a letter i wrote to my younger sister yesterday.
i caught her and my one-year older sister selling my furniture at a garage sale.
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TMS
I forgot to say "thank you" for all of your suggestions and encouragement. Yes, we do plan to take them to Small Claims Court. I have pictures of almost all of my possessions.
Good Night, Nena
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23
Witnesses Sell Stolen Furniture to Feed Circuit Overseer
by TMS ini'm nena, the wife of tms, who used to post in this forum.
i'm posting a letter i wrote to my younger sister yesterday.
i caught her and my one-year older sister selling my furniture at a garage sale.
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TMS
Let me add some detail I didn't have time for this morning: Again, this is Nena, TMS' wife.
TMS and I moved down to Rio Grande Valley of Texas in April of 2004 three months after his retirement. We had sold our home and had all of our furniture in the largest of vans. We left that van full of furniture on our property in Arroyo City and spent the first few nights with my sister Teresa in Brownsville while we looked for an RV. Teresa is a widow of 63, one year older than me. Her husband had been Presiding Overseer of the Brownsville, TX East Congregation for many years and later City Overseer. We stayed with my sister about four nights before finding a park model RV to live in. Teresa lived in the house with her 41 year old impaired son and her 11 year old granddaughter. The house was in great disrepair since her husband had died.
During our stay with my sister, she suggested that TMS and I store all our furniture in her double garage instead of renting a storage unit. This we did. We also started a renovation on her property at no charge to her. No one in the congregation would help her, she said. The large back yard was so overgrown in the subtropical climate that the six foot tall back fence could not be seen. We cleared the entire lot of the tall grass, overgrowth, limbs, a large bees nest and debris. Then we started on the house interior, painting and redecorating all the rooms, installing new molding on the walls, repairing porch screens, laying a carpet, repairing the roof, etc.
Since Teresa's furniture was also well worn, I allowed her to use many of our pieces, making very, very clear that I was absolutely retaining possession. She understood this. Since a book study was held there, the "friends" noticed the changes. Some asked if they could buy our services, which did not interest us. JW's made offers to purchase some furniture items through Teresa, which we declined.
We first noticed a possessiveness toward our things, when TMS mentioned that he preferred the small leather love seat we owned to the Hide-A-Bed in our RV. Teresa said " the love seat looks so good in my living room." She frantically sought another option, even locating a daybed she wanted TMS to buy instead. We decided to reclaim our love seat and offered the hide-a-bed and a matching chair as sort of a room replacement. She seemed semi-content with this, although not totally pleased. Later we used the house key she had given us to recover a few more nicknacks, a picture, a small decorative table, etc. We had used our key to enter her house many times previously without problem, even staying in the home during the summer assembly at her request. But this time struck a nerve. She changed the locks and threatened us with a restraining order.
TMS felt it best to write to her elders since that might be an authority she would respect. We felt law enforcement would simply say "possession is 9/10ths of the law" or something, which they did. We were very foolish to have been in this position and certainly old enough to have known better, so we accept some responsibility for our situation. When approached by her elders, she evidently told them she would return our things, although she predetermined in her own mind that it would be a small portion of our belongings. She also called our lawyer brother in Houston and posed a hypothetical to him: "What if a 'friend' left his furniture and possession in your house for a year and never returned for them?" Lawyer Johnny said: "They're yours!" I learned later that he was angered to learn that the "friend" was his/her own sister and that he had been set up.
We received a certified letter to pick up our things in 24 hours. We had to wait over the weekend to pick up and sign for the letter since we weren't home when the carrier first attempted to deliver it. The letter requested that we call first so that the side gate could be unlocked and we could recover our possessions from the screened porch area. We immediately began calling, but for nearly two days the calls were not answered. That's when we decided to go by the house and found my sisters and their young ones selling our possessions at a garage sale. My older sister came out with a large smile: "What would you like to buy?" My younger 45 year old sister said: "You came too late! This is all legally ours now!" I was shocked and began picking up as many of my smaller items as I could and throwing them into our van. My older sister began ordering us off the property and threatened to call the police. I ran up to my slightly retarded 41 year old nephew, Rene, and tried to get his reaction.(Rene has brain damage from a childhood case of spinal menengitus. I had retaught to talk, and walk and potty trained him at the age of 4 when he got sick. I just knew that "Jehovah" was real to him and didn't think he would lie.) "Rene", I said, "you know these things belong to us!" I tried to hold him and he stiffened his arms and said: " You know I have to say what my mother wants me to say."
As I walked through the side gate, I screamed as I saw an antique chest of drawers had been left out to ruin during Hurricane Emily, along with four mattresses and other things. Reaching the back porch I saw a few more of our items and retrieved what I could. Most of our more valuable furniture was still in the house. Teresa then began to call the police and report an assault. TMS began to urge me to leave. We were met at the end of the street by 5 Cameron County Sheriff's vehicles. TMS and I were eventually handcuffed and arrested and charged with domestic violence. I had absolutely not touched anyone, except to hold my nephew Rene for a moment and, of course, the laid back TMS touched no one.
We were placed in the back seat of separate police vehicles with our hands at our backs, handcuffed. Both vehicles had the windows sealed tight with the A/C off. The temperature outside was 100 degrees. I'm a diabetic and could feel myself getting weak. I asked for water, which was denied. After about 30 minutes TMS and I were taken to a locked, unoccupied substation for individual questioning.
They interviewed me first. I surprised myself by blurting out to the officers: "Do you believe in God?" The three of them shook their heads affirmative. "I don't" "At least not in the sense of an active God who still cares for us Oh, I believe a god created all things, but I don't believe he cares about us any more. Do you know why?" One officer asked "why?" "Because there is no justice!" One officer agreed that there is no justice, but he implied that I should still believe in God. Then, I totally surprised myself by telling them the real contention between my sisters and I -- that I was no longer one of Jehovah"s Witnesses. I explained how twelve years ago our son had been disfellowshipped for some foolish things he had done and that we as parents had been ordered not to speak to him. Instead, we had invited him back into our home so that we could more closely guide and help him. For this, the congregation had treated us shabbily and my husband, TMS, who had been very prominent among Jehovah's Witnesses had lost all of us privileges. All of the officers shook their heads. One officer said he had heard about this type of action among JW's and that it was wrong. What surprised me is that in the ten or so years since I had left the witnesses I had NEVER, EVER talked about it. This was the first time and it felt so good. My "statement" took about an hour and a half while TMS was still handcuffed, isolated in another room. I noticed a softening of attitude towards me by the officers.
By the time the officers got to TMS, it was getting late. The officers had decided not to take us to jail, but instead to try to find a judge in Brownsville to arraign us and release us. No judge in Brownsville could be found. Finally a judge was located in the small town of Los Fresnos, twenty miles away. We were rushed up their by another young officer, while the principle officer followed in his car. "Don't handcuff them!" he yelled out to our driver.
At Los Fresnos, we were arraigned and afterward I asked the officer how we would get home since our car was impounded. He said: "Don't worry. I'm not leaving you in the lurch." He began to drive us back to Brownsville, while calling the impound service. He looked back at me: "Do you know someone in the department?" I hesitated. "Do you know a dispatcher?" I could only think of my nephew's ex-wife. "Janie!" I blurted out. Well, she has your vehicle. She's going to meet us at designated location. When I saw Janie and another sister Annalee, I burst into tears, terrible sobbing. I had not been remotely close to crying during the entire ordeal, but all at once my emotions flowed out.
There is much, much more. Of course I'm leaving out many things. SF, I will explain the connection with feeding the circuit overseer in another sequence, but it's getting very late.
Nena
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23
Witnesses Sell Stolen Furniture to Feed Circuit Overseer
by TMS ini'm nena, the wife of tms, who used to post in this forum.
i'm posting a letter i wrote to my younger sister yesterday.
i caught her and my one-year older sister selling my furniture at a garage sale.
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TMS
I'm Nena, the wife of TMS, who used to post in this forum. I'm posting a letter I wrote to my younger sister yesterday. I caught her and my one-year older sister selling my furniture at a garage sale. At her invitation, TMS and I have been storing all our furniture in her garage. We had a key to her garage for access to our goods. Now she is using most of our pieces throughout her home and has changed her locks. Both of my sisters are baptized Jehovah's Witnesses in good standing. The two women were selling sets of rattan and wicker furniture they couldn't use. I wrote my younger sister because there is a slight possibility I can reach her heart. The older sister is incorrigible.
I realize the following letter is not self-explanatory, but I will add detail later as this situation is ongoing and multi-faceted
Dear Dina,
Why am I writing a letter to you? I've found it difficult to talk to you in person because you seldom make eye contact. Anyway, you're usually around your oldest sister and she dominates any conversation near her, especially when someone tries to talk to you. Also, I have deep feelings and my emotions get the best of me when I try to talk. So, I'm writing my feelings down.
You can't imagine how shocked I was to see you and your family helping to sell my things. Most of the items you were selling out front were gifts to me from my son which I could not put a value on. What kind of a sister would do that? You may have gotten a slight understanding of how I felt when your son sold some of your families' things. What you and your family are selling or stealing are all the things my husband and I have accumulated in 36 years of marriage.
I will never forget your first words to Jim and I yesterday: "You're too late!" Not that that would have excused your actions anyway, but let me explain what you and Teresa did. Teresa sent a certified letter to us. The letter was not delivered since we were not home to sign for it. We picked it up late Monday afternoon at the Rio Hondo Post Office. Here is what the letter said: "THIS SERVES TO NOTIFY YOU THAT YOU 24 HOURS TO GET YOUR BELONGINGS OUT OF MY BACK PORCH. PLEASE CALL FIRST SO THAT WE CAN UNLOCK THE SIDE GATE. TERESA ROTH & FAMILY. PHONE: 956-8316508"
Jim wanted to rent a truck and go down there immediately, but I knew it would be of no use if the gate was locked. I wanted him to call first. We called for two days with no answer. Teresa's excuse for not answering was that she doesn't answer unpublished numbers. What you and she did was similar to the way Jesus was dealt with by Pilate and others. You tried to find a legal way to do badness. What you did was wrong and deep down you know it.
Let me give you another example of the underhanded way you and Teresa operated. Our brother Johnny says he received a call from Teresa with a hypothetical question: "A friend has left some stuff in my house and never picked it up. What should I do?" Do you think he would have responded in the same way if she had told him, the "stuff" was all of his sister's possessions?
We've been trying to negotiate the release of our possessions peacefully for two months. Teresa ordered us off her property and threatened us with a restraining order. We wrote the elders. They chose not to communicate with us, probably because we're no longer witnesses. But there is a humane way to treat witnessses and non-witnesses. Have you ever read how Jesus treated sinners and non-believers?
I really thought Teresa's position would soften when she recalled how much Jim and I had done for her at no cost. We recovered her back yard from years of neglect, repainted and decorated her kitchen and living room. Her bathroom was caked with mold and mildew. Her screened porch was unusable. We redecorated Tere's room, patched a roof leak, etc. Three trips we made to Galveston to take her for treatment. In spite of this, Teresa allowed her neck to harden like Pharoah and the ancient Isrealites.
I screamed out when I saw what you and Teresa had done to the antique boat dresser by leaving it out to ruin in the torrential rains. I bought that thirty-five years ago and have pictures of my work restoring it. It was my son's first dresser. Teresa knew how much this piece meant to me and it simply illustrates her maliciousness that she chose that particular item to throw outside. She chose to keep three other antique dressers in the house because she intended to keep them. This item she had no use for and ruined it. You could have saved it but chose not to.
I want to talk about the lies you and Teresa told to get Jim and I arrested. You know I never hit Teresa. She hit and pushed me, but I never touched her. I yelled and screamed, but I did not get physical and, of course, Jim did not. Lieing becomes a habit and eventually comes easily. Kids hear there parents lie and learn that as acceptable behavior. Let me use this example. Teresa claimed that she enrolled Diedra in a school outside her territory by claiming to be the guardian in whose home Diedra resides. If Teresa represented things accurately, then Diedra is in that school based on a lie and knows it. What does that teach her about telling the truth? Also, if you and your kids lie to the police about what happened yesterday, what example does that set? "He who is faithful in what is least is faithful in much."
One good thing came out of the pain you and Teresa inflicted on us. I thought we were alone in this world, but I was wrong. The love shown to us by Annalee and Janie, Mama and Milo overwhelmed us. They took care of everything. We do have family afterall.
Nena
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Run In With Ex-Father-In-Law (Elder/PO)
by adelmaal ini had forgotten how much drama it is to deal with an elder who refuses to answer a direct question.
this isn't even bible related yet still he refused to answer my question.
first a little background.. last week my daughter missed detention.
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TMS
"Document. Document. Document.
Attorney, Social Services, all of them. This week"
That's very good advice.
tms
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JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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TMS
Lawyers are accustomed to arguing both sides of an issue. They may start with idealism, altruism, but eventually yield to pragmatism.
I've known a few and I'm always amazed at how irrelevant truth is.
I've known one JW lawyer, a very good man, but one who had difficulty fitting into the JW box. The elders in his congregation were eager to recommend him as an elder, but he refused to pad his field service hours and was intermittent in meeting attendance when on a difficult case.
I can't imagine one of Jehovah's Witnesses serving at Bethel as a lawyer not experiencing several crises of conscience. Table for a moment bulldozing over the victims of pedophilia, the Watchtower's obsession with asset protection and limiting tax liability. Just the fact that JW lawyers are afforded a lifestyle far above the typical housekeeping or bookbinding worker should raise a red flag.
Lawyers know the real priorities of their clients because they have to know what they are actually fighting for.
Hayden Covington was a Watchtower lawyer who almost became president of the Watchtower Society. He saw no conflict in representing Cassius Clay(Muhammad Ali) as a Muslim minister is his conscription fight against the draft board.
tms
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TMS
a dead elder.
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Interesting conversation at work last Friday
by cruzanheart inthe wife of one of our lawyers is a judge here in dallas, and i overheard her husband telling a couple of other lawyers about this really tough case she has right now: deciding to issue a court order to give blood to premature twins whose parents are witnesses.
i popped in with "i'm an ex-jw -- ask me anything" so he and i started talking about the blood issue.
the father of the twins was in tears in the courtroom -- not because of his babies getting blood but because he was afraid he would be accused of giving his consent to the blood transfusion.
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TMS
Despite all the lip service given to conscience, Bible principles, pleasing Jehovah, etc., the main concern is not being disfellowshipped. I "served" on the Hospital Liaison Committee a number of years ago. If a phone call to our contact at Brooklyn said a procedure was acceptable, whether it be autotransfusion (recycling the patient's own blood) or a blood component, the JW patient or parent immediately endorsed the idea. If the decision is taken out of the parent's hands by court order there is much public anguish, but privately some relief that the parent fought as hard as they could and won't be disfellowshipped.
The whole process is skewed and subject to the current rulings of the hierarchy at Brooklyn.
tms
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watchtower red flags
by Ticker inwhen i was studying and in the org i never did put two and two together becuase first off it was peer pressure and a young baptism age.
i was indoctrinated as a child so i never got a chance to ever use sound reason and judgement toword the validity of the society's claims.
but anywho i was thinking the other day about certain things that are obvious red flags and far fetched claims that the org makes.
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TMS
It is so simple.
The first few thousands of anointed ones were Jews who apostatized themselves by joining the sect of the Nazerenes.
During the dark ages a few Christians who fought the Trinity teaching and papal indulgences, etc. were anointed.
Finally, in the 19th century the remainder of the heavenly calling were chosen from among a group of serious Bible students largely located in the northeastern United States. The women wore pill box hats and the men were in their "Sunday best." They attended religious conventions where they were taught, among other things to "Advertise, advertise, advertise the King and His Kingdom."
Some of these anointed proved unfaithful and were "lopped off", replaced largely by mentally unstable, egocentric undeserving wackos who had only in recent years become members of Jehovah's Witnesses. Two or three of these were black.
Obviously, this was all God's will.
tms