"Feel like I have pulled one of my last suckers away from the JWs, I'm never going to another meeting."
What a huge relief when one finally comes to this conclusion!
tms
Posts by TMS
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34My last meeting
by PoppyR inso last night we had the last book study at our house, next week all the congregations change around and i asked for it to be moved.
so i sat in on it, and afterwards we had a bit of a 'party'.
felt quite emotional really, although i haven't answered for a long time i put my hand up to read a scripture just so i could mark the last time i did this.
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50
Over 160,000 Simply Left The "Truth" Last Year
by minimus inthat was the comment that a former elder made at the local meeting today in his comment.
evidently, he and his wife heard a bethel speaker's comment during his talk say that (i believe the figure was) 167,000 people did not get disfellowshipped but simply left.
the ex-elder made it a point to say that the elders should be watching to help out the flock before they up and leave.
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TMS
Would the governing body be concerned enough to do an exit poll? If they would actually listen to the genuine concerns of those who have left and not simply dismiss it as "crazy talk", much could be learned.
Honestly, though, the GB lacks the humility to actually listen to those who depart. It's much easier to label them as "not of our sort."
As someone said above, internal ministry would, at this point, be far more productive than the "field ministry" JW's engage in. The organization is just too insensitive to see it.
tms
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OMG - Part 18 of my exit story EXPLODES !!!
by Amazing1914 ini am in the middle of publishing my book on my exit from the jws.
it is still hosted on freeminds, but is undergoing revision to clean up grammar, spelling, split a couple of chapters and add a couple of chapters.
i will also be adding an appendix of correspondence with the watchtower society.
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TMS
Thanks Jim
tms
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8
Update from Nena: Furniture Stolen By My JW Sister
by TMS inthis is nena, tms' wife.
while we will soon go to small claims court to recover our possessions, i have still been answering questions from my large extended family.
i learned recently that my brother manuel, who is a baptist minister in kansas, had been inquiring about the incident.
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TMS
Here is the letter I sent to my younger sister Dina, an active Witness:
Dear Dina,
Why am I writing a letter to you? I've found it difficult to talk to you in person because you seldom make eye contact. Anyway, you're usually around your oldest sister and she dominates any conversation near her, especially when someone tries to talk to you. Also, I have deep feelings and my emotions get the best of me when I try to talk. So, I'm writing my feelings down.
You can't imagine how shocked I was to see you and your family helping to sell my things. Most of the items you were selling out front were gifts to me from my son which I could not put a value on. What kind of a sister would do that? You may have gotten a slight understanding of how I felt when your son sold some of your families' things. What you and your family are selling or stealing are all the things my husband and I have accumulated in 36 years of marriage.
I will never forget your first words to Jim and I yesterday: "You're too late!" Not that that would have excused your actions anyway, but let me explain what you and Teresa did. Teresa sent a certified letter to us. The letter was not delivered since we were not home to sign for it. We picked it up late Monday afternoon at the Rio Hondo Post Office. Here is what the letter said: "THIS SERVES TO NOTIFY YOU THAT YOU 24 HOURS TO GET YOUR BELONGINGS OUT OF MY BACK PORCH. PLEASE CALL FIRST SO THAT WE CAN UNLOCK THE SIDE GATE. TERESA XXXX & FAMILY. PHONE: 956-XXXXXX"
Jim wanted to rent a truck and go down there immediately, but I knew it would be of no use if the gate was locked. I wanted him to call first. We called for two days with no answer. Teresa's excuse for not answering was that she doesn't answer unpublished numbers. What you and she did was similar to the way Jesus was dealt with by Pilate and others. You tried to find a legal way to do badness. What you did was wrong and deep down you know it.
Let me give you another example of the underhanded way you and Teresa operated. Our brother Johnny says he received a call from Teresa with a hypothetical question: "A friend has left some stuff in my house and never picked it up. What should I do?" Do you think he would have responded in the same way if she had told him, the "stuff" was all of his sister's possessions?
We've been trying to negotiate the release of our possessions peacefully for two months. Teresa ordered us off her property and threatened us with a restraining order. We wrote the elders. They chose not to communicate with us, probably because we're no longer witnesses. But there is a humane way to treat witnessses and non-witnesses. Have you ever read how Jesus treated sinners and non-believers?
I really thought Teresa's position would soften when she recalled how much Jim and I had done for her at no cost. We recovered her back yard from years of neglect, repainted and decorated her kitchen and living room. Her bathroom was caked with mold and mildew. Her screened porch was unusable. We redecorated Tere's room, patched a roof leak, etc. Three trips we made to Galveston to take her for treatment. In spite of this, Teresa allowed her neck to harden like Pharoah and the ancient Isrealites.
I screamed out when I saw what you and Teresa had done to the antique boat dresser by leaving it out to ruin in the torrential rains. I bought that thirty-five years ago and have pictures of my work restoring it. It was my son's first dresser. Teresa knew how much this piece meant to me and it simply illustrates her maliciousness that she chose that particular item to throw outside. She chose to keep three other antique dressers in the house because she intended to keep them. This item she had no use for and ruined it. You could have saved it but chose not to.
I want to talk about the lies you and Teresa told to get Jim and I arrested. You know I never hit Teresa. She hit and pushed me, but I never touched her. I yelled and screamed, but I did not get physical and, of course, Jim did not. Lieing becomes a habit and eventually comes easily. Kids hear there parents lie and learn that as acceptable behavior. Let me use this example. Teresa claimed that she enrolled Diedra in a school outside her territory by claiming to be the guardian in whose home Diedra resides. If Teresa represented things accurately, then Diedra is in that school based on a lie and knows it. What does that teach her about telling the truth? Also, if you and your kids lie to the police about what happened yesterday, what example does that set? "He who is faithful in what is least is faithful in much."
One good thing came out of the pain you and Teresa inflicted on us. I thought we were alone in this world, but I was wrong. The love shown to us by Annalee and Janie, Mama and Milo overwhelmed us. They took care of everything. We do have family afterall.
Nena
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Update from Nena: Furniture Stolen By My JW Sister
by TMS inthis is nena, tms' wife.
while we will soon go to small claims court to recover our possessions, i have still been answering questions from my large extended family.
i learned recently that my brother manuel, who is a baptist minister in kansas, had been inquiring about the incident.
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TMS
This is the letter I sent to my brother Johnny, a lawyer in Houston.
Dear Johnny,
I'm writing you because Teresa and Dina are citing your advice as legal authority for retaining and selling my belongings. I realize legal advice can be misrepresented and a legal question can be carefully phrased to elicit a desired response. I'm enclosing a letter I sent to Dina which provides some details. Generally, I'm not overally concerned with how I'm perceived, but this action by my sisters has been especially hurtful and for them to give the impression that you back them up adds to that hurt.
Nena
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Update from Nena: Furniture Stolen By My JW Sister
by TMS inthis is nena, tms' wife.
while we will soon go to small claims court to recover our possessions, i have still been answering questions from my large extended family.
i learned recently that my brother manuel, who is a baptist minister in kansas, had been inquiring about the incident.
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TMS
This is Nena, TMS' wife. While we will soon go to Small Claims Court to recover our possessions, I have still been answering questions from my large extended family. I learned recently that my brother Manuel, who is a Baptist minister in Kansas, had been inquiring about the incident. He had learned about the matter from my brother Johnny, the lawyer. Manuel and I have not been close the last forty years because of our religious differences. Nevertheless, I sent him the following letter yesterday.
Dear Manuel,
Annalee mentioned that you were asking about the situation between Teresa and me. Anna knows very little and Mom knows just what Teresa has told her. Their view seems to be that this is an incident between sisters that will eventually "blow over." It is deeper than that. Teresa's actions were intentional, calculated and evil. Sadder still, she brought our sister Dina into it as her follower.
I will present matters as carefully and accurately as I can.
Jim and I moved to the valley in April 2004. We left a large rented van with all of our possessions on our property in Arroyo City. We intended to stay a few days with Mom, but she was not home. We ended up at Teresa's for about 4 days while looking for an RV to buy. Teresa mentioned that she had a double garage and there was no need to rent a storage building. We accepted her offer and neatly stacked everything up in less than half of her garage. Several large items, like a huge armor my son bought me, we let her use. She agreed we retained ownership.
We noticed that Teresa's home and property had deteriorated greatly. We offered to help her without cost. The back yard was out of control, about four feet tall. You could not even see her back fence. We cut that all down, removing years of discarded items in the underbrush. Vines were removed from the back windows, trees trimmed, huge oleander bushes cut back.
Next, we concentrated inside her home. I painted her kitchen and dining area. Jim installed moulding. The same with the hallway and Tere's room. Teresa's bathroom was covered with mold. We ripped off the old wall paper and painted the walls and cabinets, etc. We also repainted her screened porch, layed carpet, pit in a new screen door, blinds, etc. We did not charge her a penny and actually paid for many supplies and tools.
During this redecoration, I noticed that Teresa's furniture was well worn. I offered to let her use a few more of my pieces, making it absolutely clear that I retained ownership. She said she understood this and always spoke of "your furniture." With this arrangement, my item eventually were used in every room of her house. We had been given a key to her home and could access our things at any time.
We first sensed trouble when Jim told Teresa he was going to trade out our leather love seat for the new couch in our RV. Teresa said: "But Jim, it looks so good right where it's at." She tried to talk Jim out of the love seat and into buying a day bed. She even called us from a store where she had located a day bed she wanted us to look at. Jim paid Camillo, Jr. to pick up the RV's couch and help him load the love seat into our van. Teresa was not too happy but didn't make a scene in front of Milo. (Anna later told us that Teresa said the next time Milo helped us take out our furniture, she would call the police on him.)
A few days later we used our house key to pick up a five small items: a picture, a night stand, a lamp and two African figurines. Just a handful of items, really. Jim wrote a note explaining what we were picking up and left it on the dining table(ours). When we stopped by a couple days later to see Teresa and her family, she wouldn't open the door. The locks had been changed. She opened one window and screamed at us, stating that she had a restraining order against us. I told her: "Just give us all our possessions back!" She said: "I was going to give you all your stuff back, but I'm not now!" We later learned that she had called others saying that her house had been "broken in to, burglarized." She even called Joey, Anna's daughter to see if any of "her people" had done this. That was just to set us up as criminals.
Teresa received our mail for a time. She learned that I had a delinquent credit card debt. She told Anna: "I don't know what kind of legal trouble Jim and Nena are in, but there's something in Fort Worth."
Jim thought the only ones she would respect were here Church elders so he wrote them a letter, asking one of them to arbitrate. He felt like they were the only ones she would respect. The elders never responded. They simply told her that it was a private matter and to "handle it."
Teresa sent us a letter asking us to remove our furniture and other items from her property. She said her car needed to be parked in the garage during hurricane season. Jim replied with a letter listing all of our possessions we could remember. She responded with a certified letter giving us 24 hours to pick up our things, but also telling us to call first so the gate would be unlocked. The certified letter spent the weekend in the Rio Hondo Post Office, since we were not at home to sign for it. On picking the letter up on Monday, we began calling: No answer. We logged all our phone calls.
Jim wanted to rent a storage van, but I knew it was of no use if her side gate was locked. So we decided to drive by. Imagine our horror when we saw Teresa, Dina and all their kids selling our stuff at a yard sale. Dina's first words were: "You're too late!" Teresa came running out with a big smile: "What would you like to buy?" I went up to Rene and said: "Rene, you know these are our things!" He said: "I have to say what my mom tells me to say!" I began picking up as many small items as I could and throwing them in the van. Then I went through the side gate and gasped! My son's antique dresser drawer was ruined, having been left out in Hurricane Emily. Other antique pictures were tossed out in a box and ruined. The t-shirts we sell on Ebay and been left out in the rain with the plastic storage bags unzipped. They were wet and roaches were in the bags. Four mattresses had been left out and were ruined. These items had been discarded because Teresa had no use for them. Much of my better furniture remained inside the house. She had no intention of ever giving us back most of our items.
As Teresa called the police, Jim told me we needed to leave. I kept picking up items and throwing them in the van. Finally, our van was full and we left. We were met at the end of the street by 5 Cameron County Sheriff's vehicles. Jim stopped and explained the situation, showing the offficers one of the letters. Other officers went to Teresa's and took a statement. When the other officers came back Jim and I were arrested and charged with felony assault. I had never touched anyone and Jim certainly hadn't. Evidently, Teresa and Dina and all the kids indicated we had. Jim and I were handcuffed and placed in the back of unairconditioned police cars with the windows rolled up. I could feel myself passing out and asked for water. I told them I was a diabetic and needed water. Denied. "Should have thought of that before you did this!" one officer said.
At the substation, the police interviewed me for 1-1/2 hours and then took my statement. Jim was in another room. At one point the officer told me that he had been in the business long enough and could tell who was telling the truth. He said he hated it when parents got their kids to lie. He told me that he was reducing the charges to 3rd degree misdemeanor domestic violence. He said he could not drop the charges with the victim's testimony as it was. They wanted to arraign us so that we wouldn't have to spend the night in jail. All of the Brownsville judges were out of pocket so we were driven to Los Fresnos and arraigned.
After arraignment, the officer said he wasn't going to leave us stranded. Our vehicle had been impounded and it was after hours. As we rode back to Brownsville, the officer received a call. Janie, Camillo's wife, had gotten our van out of impound and was on the way to rendezvous at a Circle K and pick us up. Anna and Janie came out of the car and hugged us. We had family after all!
I'm leaving out many details, but I wanted you to see that Teresa's actions go way beyond just a sister disagreement. I view her actions as unforgivable. Mom does not understand this. When I tell her Teresa lied to have us arrested, she just says: "I wouldn't have let you stay in jail." When I tell her Teresa still has most of the things Jim and I accumulated in 36 plus years of marriage, she talks about the time Rosie tooks something of hers. She doesn't want to believe it's as serious as I know it is. I understand this. I've been gone for many years and not been a daughter to Mom. The other girls have. I've been working hard to restore a relationship in recent years, but it's been difficult.
Jim and I were naive to leave our things with Teresa and accept some of blame, but we never imagined she would do this. She also used Johnny by asking him a hypothetical question: "What if a friend leaves their furniture in your house for a year and doesn't come back for it?" She also gained her elders approval of her actions by a similar tactic. Dina bought into all that.
Anyway, I just wanted you to know what we've been through. We will explore other options to recover our possessions.
Nena
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TMS
March 9, 1957
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10
Who are these people? Amnesian? bjc2read?
by gringojj inok we have recently had some people starting threads about the bethel couple and watchtowerfarm.org.
of course if this is a fake, then we have to wonder what is the motive behind it.
i may be looking into this too much but i looked at the 2 people who started posts on this subject.
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TMS
Amnesian is/was one the more articulate posters to grace this bandwidth. There are dozens of similar skill, knowledge and history who simply do not post much anymore for their own reasons. It's possible that nearly everything has already been said, documented, illustrated and argued. Now a largely younger generation of JWDites explore many of the same issues with varying degrees of comprehension.
tms
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Witnesses Sell Stolen Furniture to Feed Circuit Overseer
by TMS ini'm nena, the wife of tms, who used to post in this forum.
i'm posting a letter i wrote to my younger sister yesterday.
i caught her and my one-year older sister selling my furniture at a garage sale.
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TMS
I forgot to say "thank you" for all of your suggestions and encouragement. Yes, we do plan to take them to Small Claims Court. I have pictures of almost all of my possessions.
Good Night, Nena
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Witnesses Sell Stolen Furniture to Feed Circuit Overseer
by TMS ini'm nena, the wife of tms, who used to post in this forum.
i'm posting a letter i wrote to my younger sister yesterday.
i caught her and my one-year older sister selling my furniture at a garage sale.
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TMS
Let me add some detail I didn't have time for this morning: Again, this is Nena, TMS' wife.
TMS and I moved down to Rio Grande Valley of Texas in April of 2004 three months after his retirement. We had sold our home and had all of our furniture in the largest of vans. We left that van full of furniture on our property in Arroyo City and spent the first few nights with my sister Teresa in Brownsville while we looked for an RV. Teresa is a widow of 63, one year older than me. Her husband had been Presiding Overseer of the Brownsville, TX East Congregation for many years and later City Overseer. We stayed with my sister about four nights before finding a park model RV to live in. Teresa lived in the house with her 41 year old impaired son and her 11 year old granddaughter. The house was in great disrepair since her husband had died.
During our stay with my sister, she suggested that TMS and I store all our furniture in her double garage instead of renting a storage unit. This we did. We also started a renovation on her property at no charge to her. No one in the congregation would help her, she said. The large back yard was so overgrown in the subtropical climate that the six foot tall back fence could not be seen. We cleared the entire lot of the tall grass, overgrowth, limbs, a large bees nest and debris. Then we started on the house interior, painting and redecorating all the rooms, installing new molding on the walls, repairing porch screens, laying a carpet, repairing the roof, etc.
Since Teresa's furniture was also well worn, I allowed her to use many of our pieces, making very, very clear that I was absolutely retaining possession. She understood this. Since a book study was held there, the "friends" noticed the changes. Some asked if they could buy our services, which did not interest us. JW's made offers to purchase some furniture items through Teresa, which we declined.
We first noticed a possessiveness toward our things, when TMS mentioned that he preferred the small leather love seat we owned to the Hide-A-Bed in our RV. Teresa said " the love seat looks so good in my living room." She frantically sought another option, even locating a daybed she wanted TMS to buy instead. We decided to reclaim our love seat and offered the hide-a-bed and a matching chair as sort of a room replacement. She seemed semi-content with this, although not totally pleased. Later we used the house key she had given us to recover a few more nicknacks, a picture, a small decorative table, etc. We had used our key to enter her house many times previously without problem, even staying in the home during the summer assembly at her request. But this time struck a nerve. She changed the locks and threatened us with a restraining order.
TMS felt it best to write to her elders since that might be an authority she would respect. We felt law enforcement would simply say "possession is 9/10ths of the law" or something, which they did. We were very foolish to have been in this position and certainly old enough to have known better, so we accept some responsibility for our situation. When approached by her elders, she evidently told them she would return our things, although she predetermined in her own mind that it would be a small portion of our belongings. She also called our lawyer brother in Houston and posed a hypothetical to him: "What if a 'friend' left his furniture and possession in your house for a year and never returned for them?" Lawyer Johnny said: "They're yours!" I learned later that he was angered to learn that the "friend" was his/her own sister and that he had been set up.
We received a certified letter to pick up our things in 24 hours. We had to wait over the weekend to pick up and sign for the letter since we weren't home when the carrier first attempted to deliver it. The letter requested that we call first so that the side gate could be unlocked and we could recover our possessions from the screened porch area. We immediately began calling, but for nearly two days the calls were not answered. That's when we decided to go by the house and found my sisters and their young ones selling our possessions at a garage sale. My older sister came out with a large smile: "What would you like to buy?" My younger 45 year old sister said: "You came too late! This is all legally ours now!" I was shocked and began picking up as many of my smaller items as I could and throwing them into our van. My older sister began ordering us off the property and threatened to call the police. I ran up to my slightly retarded 41 year old nephew, Rene, and tried to get his reaction.(Rene has brain damage from a childhood case of spinal menengitus. I had retaught to talk, and walk and potty trained him at the age of 4 when he got sick. I just knew that "Jehovah" was real to him and didn't think he would lie.) "Rene", I said, "you know these things belong to us!" I tried to hold him and he stiffened his arms and said: " You know I have to say what my mother wants me to say."
As I walked through the side gate, I screamed as I saw an antique chest of drawers had been left out to ruin during Hurricane Emily, along with four mattresses and other things. Reaching the back porch I saw a few more of our items and retrieved what I could. Most of our more valuable furniture was still in the house. Teresa then began to call the police and report an assault. TMS began to urge me to leave. We were met at the end of the street by 5 Cameron County Sheriff's vehicles. TMS and I were eventually handcuffed and arrested and charged with domestic violence. I had absolutely not touched anyone, except to hold my nephew Rene for a moment and, of course, the laid back TMS touched no one.
We were placed in the back seat of separate police vehicles with our hands at our backs, handcuffed. Both vehicles had the windows sealed tight with the A/C off. The temperature outside was 100 degrees. I'm a diabetic and could feel myself getting weak. I asked for water, which was denied. After about 30 minutes TMS and I were taken to a locked, unoccupied substation for individual questioning.
They interviewed me first. I surprised myself by blurting out to the officers: "Do you believe in God?" The three of them shook their heads affirmative. "I don't" "At least not in the sense of an active God who still cares for us Oh, I believe a god created all things, but I don't believe he cares about us any more. Do you know why?" One officer asked "why?" "Because there is no justice!" One officer agreed that there is no justice, but he implied that I should still believe in God. Then, I totally surprised myself by telling them the real contention between my sisters and I -- that I was no longer one of Jehovah"s Witnesses. I explained how twelve years ago our son had been disfellowshipped for some foolish things he had done and that we as parents had been ordered not to speak to him. Instead, we had invited him back into our home so that we could more closely guide and help him. For this, the congregation had treated us shabbily and my husband, TMS, who had been very prominent among Jehovah's Witnesses had lost all of us privileges. All of the officers shook their heads. One officer said he had heard about this type of action among JW's and that it was wrong. What surprised me is that in the ten or so years since I had left the witnesses I had NEVER, EVER talked about it. This was the first time and it felt so good. My "statement" took about an hour and a half while TMS was still handcuffed, isolated in another room. I noticed a softening of attitude towards me by the officers.
By the time the officers got to TMS, it was getting late. The officers had decided not to take us to jail, but instead to try to find a judge in Brownsville to arraign us and release us. No judge in Brownsville could be found. Finally a judge was located in the small town of Los Fresnos, twenty miles away. We were rushed up their by another young officer, while the principle officer followed in his car. "Don't handcuff them!" he yelled out to our driver.
At Los Fresnos, we were arraigned and afterward I asked the officer how we would get home since our car was impounded. He said: "Don't worry. I'm not leaving you in the lurch." He began to drive us back to Brownsville, while calling the impound service. He looked back at me: "Do you know someone in the department?" I hesitated. "Do you know a dispatcher?" I could only think of my nephew's ex-wife. "Janie!" I blurted out. Well, she has your vehicle. She's going to meet us at designated location. When I saw Janie and another sister Annalee, I burst into tears, terrible sobbing. I had not been remotely close to crying during the entire ordeal, but all at once my emotions flowed out.
There is much, much more. Of course I'm leaving out many things. SF, I will explain the connection with feeding the circuit overseer in another sequence, but it's getting very late.
Nena