After an elder's meeting with the circuit overseer, actually Fred Lanier. . . .Lanier lingered after the meeting. unusually. It was obvious he had something to tell us. can't remember the exact year '81 or so. . . .Lanier in chit chat after the meeting talked about the df-shipping of Franz. . He attributed it to some closet Bible studies within Bethel reaching the conclusion that there was a secondary heavenly class. The message sent was that Ray had lost his humility and was stubbornly trying to promote new truth.. . . .for what its worth
Posts by TMS
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45The Ray Franz Saga
by snugglebunny ini'm just curious as to how it all happened.. to explain.
many years back, before ex-jw websites, i called on a local lady in order to design an extension to her already enormous house.
she was a young, voluptuous gal, married to a much older local business man who spared little expense in order to give his young wife whatever her heart desired.. we chatted for ages.
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Would Prince Rogers Nelson Have Been A More Effective Spokesperson for JWs Than Stephen Lett?
by TMS inhearing about governing body member stephen lett, i had to check him out on you tube.
in short, were i still a jw, i would be embarrassed to be represented by this mouth-agape, cornpone, dufus.
he would be the kind of public speaker the local congregation might appreciate, but who you would not send out to another congregation.. in contrast, the last few weeks i took the opportunity to play every video on you tube where the late prince rogers nelson explained his beliefs as a jw.
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TMS
It's pretty obvious that no one else in the ex-JW community, particularly those on this forum agree with me that Prince would have been a better representative for the WTBS than Lett.
Of course, this is all theoretical, because Prince Rogers Nelson would never have been selected as part of the GB or even in a J.R. Brown role as a press spokesperson.
Prince joined the JWs after losing his newborn child in whatever year, Fellow musician, Larry Graham, a JW, but, unlike Lett and other goobers on the GB, super smooth in presenting "the truth," converted Prince. Graham might have been the only person on the planet slick enough to convince Prince to be a JW.
It may not be obvious to anyone else on this forum, but had Prince been featured on JW.com broadcasts instead of Stephen Lett, the results would have been drastically different.
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Would Prince Rogers Nelson Have Been A More Effective Spokesperson for JWs Than Stephen Lett?
by TMS inhearing about governing body member stephen lett, i had to check him out on you tube.
in short, were i still a jw, i would be embarrassed to be represented by this mouth-agape, cornpone, dufus.
he would be the kind of public speaker the local congregation might appreciate, but who you would not send out to another congregation.. in contrast, the last few weeks i took the opportunity to play every video on you tube where the late prince rogers nelson explained his beliefs as a jw.
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TMS
Hearing about Governing Body member Stephen Lett, I had to check him out on You Tube. In short, were I still a JW, I would be embarrassed to be represented by this mouth-agape, cornpone, dufus. He would be the kind of public speaker the local congregation might appreciate, but who you would not send out to another congregation.
In contrast, the last few weeks I took the opportunity to play every video on You Tube where the late Prince Rogers Nelson explained his beliefs as a JW. The double standard Prince and other JWs experienced notwithstanding as well as the man's obvious non-JW dress and grooming, Prince fielded questions about JW beliefs and practices 100 times more effectively than Lett.(I believe Cedars collected many of these Prince videos in one segment, although others exist.) I've never heard anyone explain the JW aversion to celebrating birthdays better than Prince. He fielded a question about Barack Obama skillfully as well.
Between the two men, Prince comes off as more genuinely spiritual, Lett as an organizational hack.
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Running ahead of Jehovah can be done with a slow walk.
by donny ina few days ago i read a post of someone who has recently awakened to what the watchtower bible and tract society really is.
in their comments, they stated that they had been accused of "running ahead of jehovah.".
"running ahead of jehovah" was a statement levied at me many times during my convoluted journey through that organization.
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TMS
It's simply an injustice to be punished for believing or doing what's right. An organization actually led by a "God of justice" would, at the very least, correct the injustice, removing the punishment and its effects and exonerate the individual who was right all along.
Only a weak-minded, insecure, narcissistic cult would insist that it was wrong for a member to be thinking faster, more clearly and accurately, or even scripturally, than they themselves.
I even have a problem with the Bible account of Uzzah being killed by Jehovah for "steadying the ark." I feel his reaction was likely instinctive. Why would he in a split second decide to show up Jehovah? Wouldn't Jehovah have looked even weaker if the ark had fallen over on its side? Maybe Uzzah wasn't a hero, but Jehovah was completely out of line to kill him.
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One of the Most Obscene Phrases in Any Language; the Judicial Committee
by TMS ina tribunal of religious, if not spiritual, men, whose decision can alter lives, disrupt, no, destroy, families, ruin young lives, create angst, pain, depression, hopelessness, sorrow, despair can be the job for three typically unqualified men known in jw land as the judicial committee.. my first judicial experience as a kid of 18 serving on the jc involved disfellowshipping an elderly sister for apostacy when she would not promise to quit frequenting a neighborhood christian science reading room for personal study.
my second big case involved a baptized 12 year old who allegedly stole a hot wheel from k-mart.
he admitted to nothing, answering every question with "i dunno" and was put on probation, the 60's equivalent of reproof.. in subsequent years, i "served" on committees judging accused adulterers, fornicators, thieves, gamblers, non-providers, taking up boxing, slanderers and yes, apostates, sitting also on so-called appeal committees as well.
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TMS
bats in the belry, "They let you serve as elder age 18 ?"
I thought someone might ask that. Prior to the installation of the elder arrangement in 1971, the so-called "Service Committee," responsible for judicial matters was made up of the Congregation Servant, the Assistant Congregation Servant and the Bible Study Servant. Servants back then were appointed at a very young age and, if there was no one else available frequently got bumped up into the Service Committee. Certainly, this arrangement did not speak very well for the concern about handling such serious matters. The "holy spirit" was expected to guide these matters. LOL!
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One of the Most Obscene Phrases in Any Language; the Judicial Committee
by TMS ina tribunal of religious, if not spiritual, men, whose decision can alter lives, disrupt, no, destroy, families, ruin young lives, create angst, pain, depression, hopelessness, sorrow, despair can be the job for three typically unqualified men known in jw land as the judicial committee.. my first judicial experience as a kid of 18 serving on the jc involved disfellowshipping an elderly sister for apostacy when she would not promise to quit frequenting a neighborhood christian science reading room for personal study.
my second big case involved a baptized 12 year old who allegedly stole a hot wheel from k-mart.
he admitted to nothing, answering every question with "i dunno" and was put on probation, the 60's equivalent of reproof.. in subsequent years, i "served" on committees judging accused adulterers, fornicators, thieves, gamblers, non-providers, taking up boxing, slanderers and yes, apostates, sitting also on so-called appeal committees as well.
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TMS
yes, dothemath, elders can be treated differently. The Flock book even allows for an elder, guilty of an unreported disfellowshipping offense from several years ago, to continue serving without a judicial committee, if there is "evidence of God's spirit in his life" after the offense. The typical publisher would not enjoy such leniency.
Several years ago, an elder was reproved for an affair with his secretary, a young sister, and, of course, removed as an elder. A short time later, the circuit overseer put a lot of pressure on the elder body to reinstate the brother as an elder. We were not in that big of a hurry, but succumbed to the pressure, thinking that the brother was humbled by the matter and could be worked slowly into the body. When the appointment came back, it included his appointment, not only as elder, but as City Overseer, Convention Overseer and head of the Hospital Liaison.
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One of the Most Obscene Phrases in Any Language; the Judicial Committee
by TMS ina tribunal of religious, if not spiritual, men, whose decision can alter lives, disrupt, no, destroy, families, ruin young lives, create angst, pain, depression, hopelessness, sorrow, despair can be the job for three typically unqualified men known in jw land as the judicial committee.. my first judicial experience as a kid of 18 serving on the jc involved disfellowshipping an elderly sister for apostacy when she would not promise to quit frequenting a neighborhood christian science reading room for personal study.
my second big case involved a baptized 12 year old who allegedly stole a hot wheel from k-mart.
he admitted to nothing, answering every question with "i dunno" and was put on probation, the 60's equivalent of reproof.. in subsequent years, i "served" on committees judging accused adulterers, fornicators, thieves, gamblers, non-providers, taking up boxing, slanderers and yes, apostates, sitting also on so-called appeal committees as well.
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TMS
A tribunal of religious, if not spiritual, men, whose decision can alter lives, disrupt, no, destroy, families, ruin young lives, create angst, pain, depression, hopelessness, sorrow, despair can be the job for three typically unqualified men known in JW land as the Judicial Committee.
My first judicial experience as a kid of 18 serving on the JC involved disfellowshipping an elderly sister for apostacy when she would not promise to quit frequenting a neighborhood Christian Science Reading Room for personal study.
My second big case involved a baptized 12 year old who allegedly stole a hot wheel from K-Mart. He admitted to nothing, answering every question with "I dunno" and was put on probation, the 60's equivalent of reproof.
In subsequent years, I "served" on committees judging accused adulterers, fornicators, thieves, gamblers, non-providers, taking up boxing, slanderers and yes, apostates, sitting also on so-called appeal committees as well.
The rules for disfellowshipping are not found in the so-called "Good Book," sometimes called the Bible. The Watchtower leaders make up the list of disfellowshipping offenses, judicial committee procedure, appeal and reinstatement procedure. The application of these rules is as variant as every snowflake. After reinstatement, a litany of man-made rules, enforced by self-righteous elders, can determine the restoration of congregation privileges.
Not very many men living have served on more of these JC's than me, not because I'm judgemental, but because I became a JW judge at such a young age, and in midlife made myself available as I so disliked harsh, unreasonable, vindictive, self-righteous decisions being made.
The big Watchtower lie is that it is the lack of repentance, not the act itself that leads to disfellowshipping.
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Embracing, Not Running From, My Repressive JW Heritage, Finding A Few Things Worth Salvaging
by TMS inyes, we could have been born in an alley in calcutta or with the physical deformities associated with thalidomide.
instead, we were born into or introduced to a repressive, american, religious cult, that shielded us from the warmongering game of chess, the militaristic boy scouts, fornication-inducing sock hops, the twist, as well as the hokey pokey.
we heeded the warnings, avoiding the greedy self-worship associated with masturbation, decadent rock 'n roll and anything preceded by the word "extra-curricular.".
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TMS
wannaexit, "All those little skills are nothing compared to the damage this organization has done to many of us"
touche'
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Embracing, Not Running From, My Repressive JW Heritage, Finding A Few Things Worth Salvaging
by TMS inyes, we could have been born in an alley in calcutta or with the physical deformities associated with thalidomide.
instead, we were born into or introduced to a repressive, american, religious cult, that shielded us from the warmongering game of chess, the militaristic boy scouts, fornication-inducing sock hops, the twist, as well as the hokey pokey.
we heeded the warnings, avoiding the greedy self-worship associated with masturbation, decadent rock 'n roll and anything preceded by the word "extra-curricular.".
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TMS
Ucantnome,"I'm quite good at finding scriptures in the NWT and handing out leaflets"
have you ever considered full-time service?
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Embracing, Not Running From, My Repressive JW Heritage, Finding A Few Things Worth Salvaging
by TMS inyes, we could have been born in an alley in calcutta or with the physical deformities associated with thalidomide.
instead, we were born into or introduced to a repressive, american, religious cult, that shielded us from the warmongering game of chess, the militaristic boy scouts, fornication-inducing sock hops, the twist, as well as the hokey pokey.
we heeded the warnings, avoiding the greedy self-worship associated with masturbation, decadent rock 'n roll and anything preceded by the word "extra-curricular.".
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TMS
enjoyed your points, millie210 and Pete Zahut. Yes, we get a unique lesson from our experiences, whatever they were, Nazi concentration camps or the streets of Calcutta or something in between.
Would I have learned more as a freshman at the University of Washington than being a 17 year old on the streets of Brownsville, Texas, with Spanish by far the predominant language? Imagine the cultural shock of being dropped off 8 AM on Saturday morning on the main business street, then picked up at noon in what could just have well been Mexico City, with loud music, business owner's who actually cared about religion in my face. Later that week, I was at the Port of Brownsville boarding ships from Norway, Liberia and England, talking "the truth."
Maybe, my eventual wife and I shouldn't have agreed to move to central Arkansas when I was 21 and she 25 where I replaced a pedophile Congregation Servant. Again, cultural shock, working for minimum wage at a chicken plant and wood product factory under unsafe conditions, meeting a wide variety of folk, unsavory and savory.
What about our ten years as basically the only whites at the last unsegregated black congregation in Little Rock, Arkansas? Do we not have some insight few have experienced?
None of this is meant to undersell the harm done by the high control, dumbass religious cult known as Jehovah's Witnesses. I can actually agree with the uneducated, illiterate woman I met in the cotton field of Carden Bottoms, Arkansas in 1970. She tried to prove to me that "Jehovah was the last church in the Bible." She was right as rain, but couldn't prove it flipping through her Bible upside down.