This article should have been credited to Mark Driscoll of the Washington Post.
tms
Posts by TMS
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9Sex as God, gross and gift
by Most Noble inworship is giving our money, body, and life to a person or thing as our highest commitment or functional god.
practically, this means that sex is a worship act and beds are really altars.. religious belief systems have always held widely divergent views regarding sexuality.
the three most prominent views are sex as god, gross, or gift.
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COs and other org heavies - Interest in secular entertainment?
by A question inin any conversations and dealings you had with organization 'heavies' or their wives, such as cos, dos, missionaries, and so forth, did they ever have a lot of interest in any kind of secular entertainment (movies, tv shows, fiction books, and so forth)?
or did they always discuss only 'spiritual interests'?.
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TMS
Ok. . I will bite. As a young pioneer in the 60's I did share my tastes in music and film with some of the Circuit Overseer couples(Eventually, I learned to keep my tastes in music and film to myself). I loaned the Beatles Revolver album to a C.O's wife. She loved it, but her husband couldn't get past the hair. He was a Nat King Cole fan.
Circuit Overseer Tom Moore asked me to if I had seen any good movies. Since I was a Sidney Poitier fan at the time, I mentioned A Slender Thread, To Sir With Love and In The Heat of the Night. He said it all sounded too West Side Story to him. I don't know what he was looking for, but at least he valued my opinion and was not judgmental.
Circuit Overseer Don Farmer's wife(I forget her first name) found out I was a Beatles fan. She asked if I had seen his rendition of Mary Had A Little Lamb on a national tv program. I told her my wife and I didn't have tv(we were poor pioneers), and that ended the discussion.
In the late 80's, early 90's we had a book study in our home. My wife would put on videos after the study as sort of background music, Paul Simon's Graceland concert in Lagos, Nigeria, Bob Dylan's 30 years with Columbia concert and the Neville Brothers. I'm certain other elders heard about our musical tastes, but none ever confronted us.
tms
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17
does anyone dream they are on the ministry?
by pajaha inor maybe that should be "nightmare" - not dream.. it happens less and less, but still does now and again after 10 years.
it's always associated with a great feeling of dread and going from door to door knowing you do not believe what you are saying (i should point out that, while i was in it, i pretty much did believe it).. i guess it shows how big a part of our lives it once was - a bit like you often dream of being in school or of long-departed relatives..
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TMS
When I retired in 2004, I found myself reliving my entire life in dreams, sometimes handling situations better than in real life. In the dreams I was aware of my new enlightened, post-JW posture and incorporated it into JW dream situations or hassles in the entry level job I held for 30 years because of being a JW. What I found disturbing is that, even after waking up in a dream, knowing the situation was bogus, I frequently couldn't prevent myself from going back into that same dream.
It's taken me about a decade for the less-than-pleasant JW and work dreams to subside. Now, I find myself only going back into them if I do too much late night reading on JWN.
tms
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74
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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TMS
"My father wandered into this cult in the early 70s. Being a baby then I never knew there was a time when JWs were more liberal. I found this thread fascinating and am sad the freedom didn't last."
JimmyPage,
One of the points I didn't make quite well enough is that some of us bought into the relaxed control, enjoying the freedom of simply "doing the right thing." I, for one, gladly relinquished some of my so-called authority, to share it with a body of men. It seemed equitable, biblical. I also bought into the notion that traveling overseers were men just like me, equals. I never recovered from that notion, because the original ideas were taught scripturally and never unlearned. That caused some organizational problems down the line, but I always felt on firm ground.
Now, of course, as an agnostic, non-religious person, all of this discussion seems irrelevant, but it is part of my/our history nonetheless, and we can't totally disconnect.
tms
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74
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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TMS
" I'm an outsider here, but I recall Blondie's regret when the informal gatherings, picnics and so on ended. It is during informal gatherings that people bond, become a community."
jgnat,
When some of the multi-congregational parties experienced problems, the Watchtower essentially shut down all congregation parties. The host could be liable for overdrinking, fornication, loose conduct or any number of assorted consequences. Witnesses still socialized but in small, private cliques, leaving out the poor, the unpopular, the elderly and the unattached.
tms
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74
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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TMS
"Meetings seemed more relaxed in the 70s with mini-dramas in the service meeting and a lot of initiative by local brothers. Public talks had audience participation as well."
cofty,
Straying from the outline duriing a public talk became almost the unforgivable sin. In certain congregations anal elders would hold an outline in front on them, following along with your talk just like they do at district conventions. Of course, one can still soften or emphasize a point without using different words. . lol. But, whether you're George Romney or a JW speaker the real gaffes come in the sort of off-the-cuff attempts at humor.
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74
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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TMS
"Good memory TMS, it was brief oh so brief and then the jihadists took control again. I remember that summer Assembly in 1980 when the 'apostate talks' rained down on us, I literally felt sick."
designs,
I recall in 1980 or 81 the circuit overseer seemed eager to chit chat with us after our elders meeting. He usually left fairly quickly to type things up. It was obvious he wanted to give us the society's spin on the so-called apostacy, rebellion. He talked at length about what happened at Bethel with Ray Franz, almost nothing he said being accurate. He presented Franz as getting a high head, promoting a "secondary heavenly calling" and a lot of other nonsense. Something he said always stuck with me. He described the governing body as having a contentious give-and-take about doctrinal matters. He could sense that statement bothered me, shattering my fantasy. He said well, "on that level" they do argue back and forth about doctrine.
tms
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74
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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TMS
JeffT,
As we know the Watchtower was on thin biblical ice, enforcing any directives on hair length or facial hair and standards varied according to ethnicity and geography. It was noted, for example, that elders in Alaska wore beards in the early 70's while that was a no-no in the continental U.S. Mustaches were tolerated on hispanic and afro-american brothers, but not on caucasians. With Jesus, the apostles and first century Christians all having long hair, it became an issue of local sensibility.
As to dress, I recall a brother from Bethel who is now on one of the organizational committees visited us as a District Overseer. He met with the elders, speaking from an outline he said was a Society manuscript. It suggested the elders drive through their area on a Sunday morning, noting how people going to church dressed in their community. A young elder raised his hand and was recognized: "Since when do we allow Christendom to dictate our standards?" The Bethel brother's face turned beet red and he shut the meeting down abruptly. Going beyond the "things written" is always difficult to enforce.
tms
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74
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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TMS
"That's very interesting. Do you feel that the expectations surrounding 1975 had anything to do with this?" paul from cleveland
I never saw anything done by the organization that indicated an awareness of anything drastic happening in 1975. All of the paranoia was on the local level; pioneering, sold homes, maxed out credit cards, even a Kingdom Hall refinancing with an ascending, exhorbitant interest rate after a few initial years of low interest. With the WTBS it was business as usual, buying properties, planning for growth, etc. The restructuring into committees was sort of thrust upon them by their own changing understanding or doctrine. Even at that, it met resistance by Knorr and F. Franz.
tms
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74
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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TMS
With the book Crisis of Conscience detailing the turbulence at Bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years. We learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the Aid to Bible Understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways. Some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.
The inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the Greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one. This dramatic new insight was shared with the R&F at the '71 summer conventions with the new organizational changes to be effected in the following service year. There was also a talk few seem to remember that paved the way for not counting time spent in spreading the "good news. I approached the circuit overseer who gave the talk asking if it was possible field service time would no longer be counted. "That's what it looks like," was his response.
We received the organisational instructions about recommending a body of elders in the insert of the September Kingdom Ministry. As a very young Congregation Servant or Overseer, it was my job to meet with the entire servant body to discuss the insert, review the scriptural qualifations for elder and make our recommendation. As I recall, congregations went to two extremes, some making no recommendations for elder, while others recommended nearly all of the adult, active males. In one nearby congregation, an unassuming Congregation Servant for two decades did not feel he or any other brother met the biblical standard. None were appointed.
The KM insert allowed for 5 key positions, each filled by an elder, but rotated from year to year. That arrangement was in effect for several years, resulting in a different Presiding Overseer each year. An almost stunning change was that initially at least the circuit overseer was viewed as simply another elder, a traveling one, with more or less experience than local elders. Recommendations for congregation responsibility were made with the input of all of the elders including the circuit overseer. Gradually the pendelum swung back, but initially that was heady concept.
With the organizational changes, the emphasis on serving Jehovah from the heart, not to create a service record, the newfound authority for many, many interesting situations developed. If a fellow elder let his hair grow a bit, including facial hair, he was within his rights. It was difficult to argue scripturally for short hair and clean-shaven faces. At the circuit or district level, assembly overseers seemed to enforce more stringent standards, but frequently the congregations on an individual basis could be more lax. Public speakers frequently developed their own talks, featuring their own agendas or pet peeves. Some were very dramatic, entertaining, but did not resemble the confining rhetoric of the Watchtower.
One of the first relaxations came with respect to the treatment of disfellowshipped persons. We could now actually greet them. The Watchtower printed the example of passing a disfellowshipped person with a flat tire, stating that the Christian approach would be to stop and offer assistance as we would do for any non-Witness. We were given the option of providing transportation to the meetings for those disfellowshipped. (I remember sitting in on a judicial committee resulting in a disfellowshipping. We encouraged the person to attend all the meetings. I ended up transporting her to the Kingdom Hall for several months.)
During the summer convention of 1975 one of the talks dealt with proper attire at meetings, stating that proper female attire was not limited to skirts and dresses, but included pantsuits, as long as they were designed for female wear. We were in a huge innercity congregation at the time. The first meeting following that assembly, ALL of the sisters wore pantsuits to the Kingdom Hall.
A number of Watchtower articles of that era emphasized the individual conscience, making decisions based on principles, taking care of the widow and orphan as part of the "ministry", etc. Many of us eagerly accepted all of this sort of Christian, highminded, individual approach to serving our God. While we could give a number of other initiatives, examples, you get the drift of the organization for a very brief time in its history.
By the early 80's the organization reverted back to the old way of treating disfellowshipped persons, firmed up the local leadership with permanent presiding overseers and reinforced the control of the traveling overseers. Many of us who bought the humanity of the liberalization never quite fit in again.
tms