Posts by Trilobite

36

10/1 WT: Creative days = 7,000 years

by Seeker in

jw
friends

the fourth paragraph on page 30 in the october 1, 2001 wt says this:.

"getting back to paul's statement in hebrews, we note that he pointed out that "there remains a sabbath resting for the peoples of god," and he urged his fellow christians to do their utmost "to enter into that rest.

" this shows that when paul wrote those words, "the seventh day" of god's rest, which had started some 4,000 years earlier, was still in progress.

Trilobite

Seeker,

Of course you are exactly correct. The WTS's own chronology definitely implies that the Society has run out of time. If the 7th Creative Day includes the Millennium then the period we are in must be razor thin.

These days JWs are so confused that, likely, few will recognize that the Society is engaging in its usual deception. Some older JWs will no doubt read it as you have described. Since the Creative Day (CD) = 7000 years teaching has not officially been rescinded, but has merely fallen into intentional disuse, then most older ones presumably still believe that. However, they have been trained out of stating bluntly that a CD = 7000 years. When they hear people say that a CD is "thousands of years long" they may take that to mean 7000 years, but they also recognize, perhaps subconciously that currently acceptable Theocratese forbids them from saying so. Again, they demonstrate their ability to hold two logically contradictory thoughts at the same time.

Newer ones will likely read see these words as general confirmation that we are "in the last days of the last days" without making the explicit connection to the previous, and more concrete, CD teaching. Thus, both groups go away encouraged. As usual the WTS is talking out of all four sides of its mouth.

T.

536

LET'S MAKE A LITTLE WAGER

by You Know in

jw
friends

perhaps you recall the instance in the bible where samson made a wager with the philistines that they couldnt guess his riddle.

as it turned out they wheedled the answer out of him by his fiancee, but the point is that they had a wager.

since the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that we are not living in the last days of this system of things, and that this world is not facing anything remotely like the biblical apocalypse, at least not any time soon, in the spirit of such antagonism, i would like to propose a similar wager.

Trilobite

Larc,

I think Robert is hoping against hope that he is not allowed to win his bet. He certainly doesn't want to lose it either. But imagine him having to write a letter to the Society explaining where the $100.00 came from, as he has promised he will do. I say let him, in fact, insist that he's won!

T.

536

LET'S MAKE A LITTLE WAGER

by You Know in

jw
friends

perhaps you recall the instance in the bible where samson made a wager with the philistines that they couldnt guess his riddle.

as it turned out they wheedled the answer out of him by his fiancee, but the point is that they had a wager.

since the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that we are not living in the last days of this system of things, and that this world is not facing anything remotely like the biblical apocalypse, at least not any time soon, in the spirit of such antagonism, i would like to propose a similar wager.

Trilobite

You Know,

: Did you know that it took 30 years for the stock market to recover from the 1929 crash?

People tend to follow the overall market (DOW etc) and ignore the fact that the indexes are re-balanced periodically so as to eliminate the companies that fail. This puts a much rosier picture on everything; in the very long run indexes can, essentially, only go up. However, they leave in their wake thousands of blown out buy-and-holders who held companies that went bust. In that light things were much worse earlier this century than even You Know seems to realize. God didn' step in then, and he won't do so now.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see things get much worse. The rally we saw earlier this year is quite comparable to the "sucker's rally" of 1930. People are still talking about a "bottom" which implies that we are nowhere near one.

No one knows where this will lead, least of all You Know, who imagines that a religion that routinely lies to its flock somehow has, or at one time had, the truth. In reality Robert is infatuated by the vivid WTS doom and gloom scenarios that were pushed by Rutherford and Fred Franz. His congentital antipathy for humanity, the buzz he gets from seeing masses of other people suffer, and his downright disgusting "personality" make him a natural Dub. His big complaint with the WTS right now is that it has gone soft.

Perversely, if Boobie's finnacial predictions actually do come to pass then, as the song says "Robert gonna be the first to go." The profits he made from trading his baseball cards won't go far in a world of hyperinflation. So, better hang on to your $100.00 Robert. You'll need it.

T.

43

The Bible advances women's rights

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

our forum's now chapter likes to slander christian believers over alleged poor treatment of women.

in truth, the bible advanced women's rights in the ancient world, even in a paternalistic society.

here are the results of research into this topic.. num 5.12--the trial of bitter waters (sotah) is a an amazing provision by god for a woman to publicly clear her name (and indict a dysfunctional husband in the process).

Trilobite

Rexie sweetie-pie,

> His imitator, Troglodyte,

Cute, but you've used that line before. Yawn.

>advances some argument that says the O.T. is not made for modern >man....LOL, No duh, Troggy; the Law Covenant was fullfilled and is not to be followed except where the N.T. confirms some moral facet.

Poor baby, you must be tired. Pray tell how the NT and the Law are synonymous? Was not, e.g., Genesis given to all humanity, for all time, modern women included? Did not God himself declare Lot to be a righteous man long before the Law was given? What about when the NT shows some OT "facet" to be immoral, e.g., polygamy, visitation of prostitutes, mindless slaughter? All the long words in the world that you cut and paste cannot deflect the obvious: God changed his standards if the Bible is to be believed.

>It's part of the last dispensation period.

Oh, I see. Rex speaks. You mean God decided that he needed to update his approach so that throwing one's daughters out to be raped, and if that didn't work, screwing them oneself, would no longer be considered a "righteous act." Such social experimentation is unexpected in the Supreme Designer. Just as well modern man has invented a word for this schizophrenic behavior: dispensational theology.

>We are now in the 'church age' dispensation which will end when the >Church of Jesus Christ is raptured.

Like Lot's offspring were? Certainly the Dubs and many others have been royally screwed by cranks like you.

>Customs you say?, the Israelites so far advanced that they must be perfect as compared to the rest of the world?

Nothing like making a woman drink some water with dusty bits in it to determine her fidelity. Perfection is killing everyone except for the virgins whom you promptly haul back to camp for some churchly activities. Perfection Rexy? In your dreams perhaps. Take a look at Tina's list for more examples of "perfection."

>They were usually not in step with the covenant, in case you hadn't >noticed during your tuesday book studies.

So here we have it: Jehovah institutes Judges to rule Israel and it did't work. Then He's peeved that the Israelites naturally want a different system, one which does actually work better according to you. Possibly, because he anticipated your future approval, He gives in to their demands. But that system also ultimately fails. Voila, Dispensation time! That's partly why we trilobites are so mightily pissed off. There we were, doing well. Damn well, in fact, and God decides that he needs to dispissenate on us.

>BTW, the only trap I could have fallen into is one that you dreamed >up after my post.

You have some potential because this statement demonstrates that you can read (or have someone read to you) as well as cut and paste. This trap was, however, known long ago on previous boards. The similarity between the two accounts can _only_ be accounted for by resorting to "ancient Middle Eastern traditions" which naturally included the concept that women were property. Like a sheep to the slaughter you went. Your original reply to me, is a mass of self-contradiction.

Rexster, you simply must the face the facts. You worship a creature that declared a pederast, who would proffer his own daughters to save his skin, "righteous" and, yet, now, would send to hell a man whose only sin is that he mistakenly hops fruit, studies geology and paleontolgy and, presents arguments that Christians are unable to answer. But I suppose it must be hard to be sane and also work for a God who so hates the taking of a census that he will knock off tens of thousands to show his displeasure. Thankfully he don't run the IRS. Yet.

C'mon, Rex, you are joking, right?

Trilobite

43

The Bible advances women's rights

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

our forum's now chapter likes to slander christian believers over alleged poor treatment of women.

in truth, the bible advanced women's rights in the ancient world, even in a paternalistic society.

here are the results of research into this topic.. num 5.12--the trial of bitter waters (sotah) is a an amazing provision by god for a woman to publicly clear her name (and indict a dysfunctional husband in the process).

Trilobite

Rex,

ps: I must be getting old. If the time of the Judges was such a low water mark then how come their God was so annoyed that they wanted to change the system and get themselves a King?

Mox,

Good point. What concerned me was that two similar accounts exist, neither of which condemns the action of offering the woemn up to the crowd. One I could live with. Rex shows his hypocrisy by making excuses for Lot just because he was officially labeled righteous but not for this Levite party animal.

T.

43

The Bible advances women's rights

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

our forum's now chapter likes to slander christian believers over alleged poor treatment of women.

in truth, the bible advanced women's rights in the ancient world, even in a paternalistic society.

here are the results of research into this topic.. num 5.12--the trial of bitter waters (sotah) is a an amazing provision by god for a woman to publicly clear her name (and indict a dysfunctional husband in the process).

Trilobite

Rex,

You actually seem to have made your own argument for once. Such as it is. That is progress though. You stated:

>This passage, and the one about Lot's daughters speaks to how >important the safety of one's guest was in those days. Guests are >still of prime importance in an arab's household.

Are we to expect the Taleban, who consider Osama bin Laden a guest, to offer their own women up in his place? That seems to have been the practice back in Israel by righteous men such as Lot. Perhaps the FAA should issue regulations that female flight attendants should first be offered to hijackers before further action is pursued?

As for doing my own research on the traditions of the Middle East, of course I have. You dropped neatly into that trap. Did you perchance glean that bit of knowledge from recent TV coverage of Afghanistan? You are right, though, Hebrew customs in many ways did not differ substantially from those of other ancient Middle Eastern people. Women were essentially viewed as being property. That is the only way in which the account of Lot and the one in Judges can be viewed. That is why it is ridiculous to try to apply OT ideas to modern society. We have evolved beyond the primitive notions of the OT. Or would you offer up your daughters or wife (God help her) to appease someone who knocked at your door with a threat?

It may have been a tradition to protect guests, even at great personal expense, but were the guests required to put their own hides first as seems to have been the case in Judges? That aside, if the account is to point up the evil of Israelite society at that point then I simply do not follow how Lot could have been judged "a righteous man" after being prepared to do essentially the same thing. You supply a number of "what ifs" but that is simply to make the Bible conform to your own ideas of what should have been. We are, after all, talking about a guy who, on a different occasion, nailed his own daughters. And let's not forget Judah and his love of hookers. He was a man of great character and was most concerned about his reputation; i.e., that he was always sure to pay for what he got.

That two distinct accounts present two similar scenarios with essentially equivalent reactions indicates that God's people had the same view of women as did everyone else. Or, perhaps, this type of story was a sort of urban legend back then which, like the flood, found its way into print.

If God's standards are so high then why does he change them as human traditions change. Sounds to me like the cart is leading the horses.
T.

43

The Bible advances women's rights

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

our forum's now chapter likes to slander christian believers over alleged poor treatment of women.

in truth, the bible advanced women's rights in the ancient world, even in a paternalistic society.

here are the results of research into this topic.. num 5.12--the trial of bitter waters (sotah) is a an amazing provision by god for a woman to publicly clear her name (and indict a dysfunctional husband in the process).

Trilobite

Rex,

Here's a particularly faith strengthening example of women's rights:

*** Rbi8 Judges 19:22-30 ***

22 While they were making their hearts feel good, look! the men of the city, mere good-for-nothing men, surrounded the house, shoving one another against the door; and they kept saying to the old man, the owner of the house: "Bring out the man that came into your house, that we may have intercourse with him." 23 At that the owner of the house went on out to them and said to them: "No, my brothers, do not do anything wrong, please, since this man has come into my house. Do not commit this disgraceful folly. 24 Here are my virgin daughter and his concubine. Let me bring them out, please, and YOU rape them and do to them what is good in YOUR eyes. But to this man YOU must not do this disgraceful, foolish thing."

25 And the men did not want to listen to him. Hence the man took hold of his concubine and brought her forth to them outside; and they began to have intercourse with her, and kept on abusing her all night long until the morning, after which they sent her off at the ascending of the dawn. 26 Then the woman came as it was turning to morning, and fell down at the entrance of the man's house where her master was,-until daylight. 27 Later her master rose up in the morning and opened the doors of the house and went out to get on his way, and, look! the woman, his concubine, fallen at the entrance of the house with her hands upon the threshold! 28 So he said to her: "Rise up, and let us go." But there was no one answering. At that the man took her upon the ass and rose up and went to his place.

29 Then he entered his house and took the slaughtering knife and laid hold of his concubine and cut her up according to her bones into twelve pieces and sent her into every territory of Israel. 30 And it occurred that everybody seeing it said: "Such a thing as this has never been brought about or been seen from the day that the sons of Israel went up out of the land of Egypt down to this day. Set YOUR hearts upon it, take counsel and speak."

I was most impressed that not only was this Levite dude able to hand over his concubine but he was then, apparently, able to go to bed and get a good night's sleep. A most Lot-ish thing to do, don't you think?

T.

64

Bush's speech -- I'll be the first to admit...

by Seeker in

jw
friends

...it was an effective speech.

i was impressed, and thought it only fair to say so here given the recent political discussions.

Trilobite

It was a very good, even surprisingly good, speech. I thought there were two significant omissions:

(i) Reference to Canada. Canada has been a strong and very sympathetic supporter of the US and so deserved explicit mention. Maybe I missed it? The Queen playing the US anthem is noteworthy, but it is far more significant that what is probably one of _the_ most enlightened and humanitarian societies on the planet did the same thing in Ottawa. What the British Royal Family does has little to do with democracy. Fortunately, they are a footnote, albeit an expensive one, to life in Britain. The support from Canada has been overwhelming. Canadians are not Americans.

(ii) I would have liked to have seen a much stronger reaction to the actual and potential violence against Arabs/Muslims in the US (and UK) W should have explicitly warned more forcefully than he did against such acts, while asking for patience in the understandable event that Arab-looking citizens, or foreigners in general, will be subjected to increased scrutiny at airports etc. Violent acts based on race would be hate crimes and so, federal offenses, right? Many Middle Easterners are more secular than westerners, and even if they are not, they should have no fear of reprisals based on where they are from.

T.

536

LET'S MAKE A LITTLE WAGER

by You Know in

jw
friends

perhaps you recall the instance in the bible where samson made a wager with the philistines that they couldnt guess his riddle.

as it turned out they wheedled the answer out of him by his fiancee, but the point is that they had a wager.

since the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that we are not living in the last days of this system of things, and that this world is not facing anything remotely like the biblical apocalypse, at least not any time soon, in the spirit of such antagonism, i would like to propose a similar wager.

Trilobite

Oh Kingly Robertly One,

> I didn't say the financial system had collapsed---yet,

How quaint! The "financial system." Please tell do tell us when "Big Business" does actually go down. Tell us when the Satanic Clergy class of Christendom are finally and fatally gored by the atheistic political elements and when the medical establishment finally pays the price for the pox that it has brought on humanity. In the meantime, why not confine yourself to doing what you do best? Terrorizing small children and potted plants.

T.

ps: I'll bet, dimes to donuts, that you are one of those guys who has a constant wet spot right by his fly? Be honest? Yea or Nay?

9

America Has No Truer Friend...

by SixofNine in

jw
friends

....than great britain.

so sayeth gw bush a minute ago.

was that squishy sound the collective moistening of 6 million jw's when they heard that?.

Trilobite

6 of 9 and half a dozen of 3/4 12,

Right. The Dubs decide that, because the US and GB are close allies that they are, well, allies. So when it turns out that they agree yet again that they are allies it proves that the Dubs were right all along. They are allies. Circular reasoning ain't even in it.

T.