Unless of course you're an advocate for repressing natural desires. If that's the case, then I kind of get your point. Just repress yourself and then you're good with the church. And now we can move on to the sexual abuse problems in the RCC. This is a great example of how well man repressing his natural sexual desires works.
new22day
JoinedPosts by new22day
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new22day
However, the attraction to the same sex is not a sin for, any more than an attraction to people to whom you are not married is a sin. So, the Church says homosexual acts are sinful in exactly the same way that acts between anyone else who is not married are sinful. But we don't suppose that the church is anti-hetero because of this. Neither is it accurate to say that the Church is anti-gay.
Sulla: No offense to you, but your arguement isn't logical. The RCC says homosexuality is sin. The church also says adultery is a sin. Two different sins.
Ironically, because the RCC says homosexuality is a sin gays can't marry so therefore don't have the luxury of committing adultery. (LOL)
Following your train of thought, one could say, murder is a sin but thinking about murder is not a sin. Stealing is a sin but thinking about stealing isn't a sin. Church doesn't approve of murderers or thieves either. I think you're stretching.
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new22day
Still thinking -- The great positive I saw in that article is that people are going elsewhere for their religious fix. Shame they still feel the need. But hey, at least they are voting with their feet and sending a message to the church that they are NOT happy with their rules.
Isn't this the crux of the matter? People have the freedom to leave. I'm not so willing to look at them as victims of the big bad church. People have a choice. As noted above, there is a LGBT group loyal to the RCC. So educated and informed people are making a choice. That's freedom of speech and choice.
Trans Human: "It is the Catholic (universal) church, after all, and many South American countries have a naturally 'macho' culture anyway, and the Catholic Church historically adapts to local cultures quite well."Agree with you. A lot of the chauvinism is a reflection of the culture however, I suppose one could ask how much faith shapes the culture.
Sulla: But have we all agreed that the Church doesn't teach homosexuality is a sin?
I'm lost on this point. I think you and FHN are saying that homosexual thoughts are not a sin but homosexual acts are a sin. If that's the point then sorry, but I think it's weak. One can think sinful thoughts but don't act on them. Why? Because homosexuality is a sin. That's really what they are saying. Am I missing something?
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It,s time to fight back, this is getting out of hand.
by jam inany suggestions to bring a end to the attacks on us who have.
left the borg and continuing efforts to alienate our love one still.
in the borg.. how about this, we all send letters to hq, flood the mail room with.
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new22day
Lisa Ling host of 'Our America' does interesting documentarys and has had a large focus on weird American religions. Seems to fit her storylines. I can hear it now...
"Most of us simply know them as the people who knock on our doors and talk about the end of times and how we can live forever. The Jehovah's Witnesses typically fly under the radar but what don't we know about their beliefs and pracitces. And why do so many people, including those who have left, call this religion a dangerous cult..."
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new22day
Thanks Flying High Now for bumping us off that scrolly page. I think you two were in agreement for a while! I was reading between the lines. :)
Still Thinking "Does one person's comfort and culture override the underlying detriment to society and many individuals? Does the continued bigotted belief about homosexuals and women not matter when we are finding personal comfort within it's framework?
These are some main reasons why religion doesn't fit for me. I was sent to a Christian college (against my will - LOL) for a few months for a math class and we were required to take bible studies. As a female I was dumfounded regarding the gender roles and expecations to be submissive. I figured God gave me a brain and if HE/SHE didn't want me to use it, why make me this way. I spent much time arguing with the father who taught the class. Cause I wasn't going to follow/submit - not my nature. So I made an easy personal choice, which anyone can make, to not particpate. Religion doesn't speak to me but the postive spiritual aspects I appreciate..
But check out this website for LGBT Catholics called Dignity
These believers want reform from within.
LGBT Catholics offer Prayers, Caution for New Pope
Boston, MA, March 13, 2013. DignityUSA Executive Director Marianne Duddy-Burke has made the following statement on the election of Pope Francis:
“We join our fellow Catholics in praying for the ministry and leadership of Pope Francis. We applaud the cardinals for their recognition of the rising energy of the Catholic Church in the global South and the new possibilities and perspectives that may come from that region.
We are encouraged by Pope Francis’ clear commitment to the poor, and to the social justice tradition at the heart of our faith. At the same time, we acknowledge that as archbishop and cardinal the man who is now Pope Francis has made some very harsh and inflammatory statements about lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. We recognize that sometimes this new job on which he embarks can change the man called to it. We call on our new Pope to recognize that he is now head of a Church that includes a huge number of LGBT people, their families and friends around the world. We invite him to take the time to learn about our lives, our faith, and our families before he makes any papal pronouncements about us, and we stand ready to enter into dialogue with him at any time.”
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Still Thinking "WTS too which is arguably no where near as extensive as the Catholic church?."
How do you know that? The cover ups are just starting to come out now. JWS have no idea how rampant abuse is in the org. because it's been swept under the rug and there's fear to talk about it.
The RCC has a lot to answer for on chld abuse. It's up to followers to walk away or be vocal about this and demand change.Anyhow I've lost the point of the discussion? Are you arguing that the RCC is the worst, or are they (JWs) equally bad?
I think everyone has agreed the orgs overall have major problems, including corruption.
(This is my last post for the day)
Thanks for the convo -
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new22day
Flying High Now - any chance you can edit your post? It's messed up the thread with running text...?
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new22day
Still Thinking "One has to wonder why they continue to support these religions though doesn't one? With Islam it's understandable...fear silences many and keeps thim under heavy handed control. But for Catholics...whats their excuse?"
I think it has to do with looking at these beliefs with more than just one lens. Religion obviously provides community, comfort, peace and order for some people. It's also cultural in many parts of the world.
I don't follow any religion but I respect people who do as long as: 1) they don't force their beliefs on me (atheists included), 2) they personally don't discrminate, believe in or promote hatred or harm others. Thankfully many people reject discriminatory doctrines and practices and I get that. So I look at the person not the label of their religion.
Live and let live and society will evolve. The times are a changing. -
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new22day
I agree, I need to do my homework on Hitchens. Now I'm curious to do so and it appears I'm wrong that he denied the holocaust so I take that back. (I'll look into this more.)
However, some strongy view him as an anti-semite. Here's an excerpt from an article by writer Benjamin Kerstein:
"Hitchens's bestselling atheist jeremiad, God is Not Great (2007), provides an excellent overview of its author's sentiments on the topic of Jews and Judaism. While the book is ostensibly opposed to all religions equally, Hitchens goes out of his way not merely to criticize Judaism but to portray it in the ugliest possible terms, invoking many of the classic themes of anti-Semitism in order to do so.For Hitchens, the evils he lists are not just religious tenets; they are ingrained in the Jews themselves. The rituals and practices of Judaism, he charges, are debased by the Jews' obsession with money, as exemplified by the "hypocrites and frauds who abound in talmudic Jewish rationalization" and who operate according to the principle: "'Don't do any work on the Sabbath yourself, but pay someone else to do it for you. You obeyed the letter of the law: who's counting?'" (Hitchens's world abounds, apparently, in dutiful shabbos goyim.) Circumcision, he claims, is the "sexual mutilation of small boys" and "most probably a symbolic survival from the animal and human sacrifices which were such a feature of the gore-soaked landscape of the Old Testament." As for anti-Semitism, the Jews brought it on themselves. "By claiming to be 'chosen' in a special exclusive covenant with the Almighty," Hitchens writes, "they invited hatred and suspicion and evinced their own form of racism."
Hitchens's loathing for Judaism, or rather the grotesque caricature he refers to as Judaism, is particularly evident in his treatment of Hanukkah, a holiday marking the 2nd-century B.C.E. victory of a Jewish revolt led by the Maccabees. For Hitchens, the Maccabees' defeat of the Hellenistic regime of Antiochus Epiphanes was a disaster, because Antiochus, far from being a villainous tyrant, had "weaned many people away from the sacrifices, the circumcisions, the belief in a special relationship with God, and the other reactionary manifestations of an ancient and cruel faith."
To put it kindly, this is false; for the rather less benign details, one may consult I Maccabees and Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews. In brief, the "weaning away" lauded by Hitchens involved the forcible suppression of Jewish culture, religion, and ritual, along with torture, imperial occupation, and mass murder, including the slaughter of children: in other words, the very things that this self-proclaimed global humanist violently denounces whenever the Jews are not involved."
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new22day
Still Thinking -- "neither of those organisations deserve any respect for their backward thinking."
And on this point I agree with you. However, both orgs exist today, so one can hope for two things 1) they disapear 2) they reform. Time will tell.
(I'll do better research on Hitchens. He definitley hated Islam and I believe he was very anti-semitic as well. 'Hate' was a regular theme in his biting journalist style.)
I like this quote from Hitchen's colleague Stephen Prothero: "The problem with Hitchens’ writing on religion is that he did what many preachers do; he let his emotions get the best of him, and then he started preaching to the choir. In the process, he helped to lead a whole generation of New Atheists down a rabbit hole of their own imagining. Inside that fantasy world, the atheists are always the smartest boys in the class, and around every corner there is a new religious sin to sneer and chuckle at. In the real world, there are millions of intelligent Christians and Muslims, Hindus and Jews sneering and chuckling at precisely the same stuff. The criticism of religion begins, believe it or not, with embarrassment in the pews."
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new22day
@ Flying High Now --- "So, to repeat, the governing body comes up much worse in a side by side comparison."
I agree with you. It's a bit like apples to elephants but in today's era if I had to take the lesser of two evils (and I'm so not interested in either) I'd choose the Catholics over JWs anyday.