Posts by Reasonfirst

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Reasonfirst

Response to Jhine,

Jan, you did not offend me. I responded (the way I did) to provide some background to the comments I've made. And thank you for your compliment.

I agree that we should try to understand all viewpoints, but I guess we all fail sometimes, I know I do too. And, it's always difficult, if not impossible, to obtain All the information on a specific topic.

For example, this morning, access to an Academic paper on Academia was in my email, the paper deals with Zoroastrian influence on Judaism- to understand all of that may take months, and I don't think I want to spend all that time on that subject, yet it is a fascinating possibility.

And, sometimes evidence is offered beyond normal human perceptions. Just how, as an example would any god speak (inform us) to our hearts? I've had people believing in some other religion (other than xtianity) say something similar. So is that a supernatural personage, acting in a way that we do not understand, doing that? Or, is there some part of our normal mind (brain) acting in a way that we do not yet understand?

Again, I thank you for your compliment to me.

34

Elders are no longer teachers

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

back in the day when i was a young witness lad, you very much got the impression that at least the training as theocratic teachers was good.. even the bible reading back then had a short introduction and conclusion.

you had to research and prepare your own ministry school talks and then perhaps you would graduate to a half of a 55 minute public talk.

then later if you were a book study conductor, you got to decide which scriptures to read and highlight.

Reasonfirst

That's not new - in my experience, most elders could kill anything interesting in whatever they were talking about.

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Reasonfirst

Jhine commented (about me): "Reasonfirst did you also read literature that presents the Christian perspective? We all tend to be guilty of conformation bias."

When I was 4, I started school at a Catholic school. My father's sister was a nun and she hoped (so I was later led to believe) she hoped I'd become a good catholic.

But my mother was an Anglican and she'd had had, me baptised in that church

When I was 13 (I think) I was confirmed in the Anglican church. But later I started to try an think things out and became agnostic

And, then later still I became a JW, and spent hours studying the bible, eventually becoming a special pioneer and congregation servant (later an elder).

Later still (after 1975) I was kicked out.

So then, I started studying again to re-examine my position, and found no good reason to believe that the bible was god inspired. So I became an athiest.

And then (now a pensioner) I decided to study history at a University. One of my close lecturers was an Anglican and I decided to take some religious topics as part of my history degree.

So I enrolled in these topics:

Early Christian Literature and Thought.

Myth in the Ancient World.

Religion along the Silk Road, That was informative, as it led me to the Manicheans, once almost the dominant religion in Asia, and possible the first christian influenced religion to have a presence in China (Still one of their temples there).

Second Temple Judaism

Early Christianity - From Constantine to Theodora,

Classical Tradition and Thought.

Byzantine Studies.

Persians, Jews and Christians.

Over a number of years, I undertook more topics then were necessary for my BA, so that I could examine other historical topics that I thought of as under-studied in our Anglo-dominated world.

Curiously, for my capstone essay, I did did a sort of analysis of Boyarin's concept of Daniel's vision of the 'Son of Man.' It was marked by a fervent Christian believer, who said it was tosh.(Boyarin sees an old god, investing a role for a younger god) I asked for his mark to be reviewed and received a much higher mark from the faculty.

Also in my small library, I have 4 volumes of 'New Documents Illustrating Early Christianity.'

and, Witherington's, New Testament History.

And, Introducing the New Testament: Its Literature and Theology. (Achtemeier, Green and Thompson)

Finally, I was not restricting anyone's right to think (think whatever you like) but, if that thought is posted in a forum like this, why would you expect that it should go untested.

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Reasonfirst

response to the-Mad-JW;

Of course he's serious, because SB's comment illustrates the problem with xtianity. it's all about opinions and not truth.

As Ehrman says in the General Introduction to the book I mentioned in a previous post:

Quote: "Christianity during the first three centuries of the Common Era was remarkably diverse."

and a little further,

Quote: "... very few people ...outside the ranks of the professional scholar, realize the diverse character of the religion in its earliest period ... early Christians engaged in heated and often acrimonious debates over fundamental issues..."

Constantine's acceptance, that the church was unlikely to vanish, and his political support gave the hierarchy that he helped select and supported, an opportunity to squash that unregulated argumentation and push it outside the officially supported "church."

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Reasonfirst

Cofty posted: "Far better to take all the time you want to really dig deeply and learn all the things about the bible, faith and science that you have been denied previously. There are many people here who can help you with all the questions you might be wrestling with. Don't 'jump out of the frying pan into the fire'.

Great advice, there's so much research on biblical topics now available that you'll never be able to absorb it all.

Clearly, I've reasoned my way to where I now stand, so maybe some may like some suggestions.

If you want more information about Xtianity after the first century, go to your local libraries and try to find a copy of Bart Ehrman's "After the New Testament: A reader in Early Christianity." Of course, the committed christians among us XJW's may decry Ehrman, but I think you'll find that book helpful. Just remember that in the rather loose organisational structures of the early church there wasn't always much structured thinking. Educated people in the early congregations wrote what they were thinking as they were influenced by ideas then current.

Another book in my library is Daniel Boyarin's, "The Jewish Gospel: The Story of the Jewish Christ." I wont comment on that book, except to say that you may be delighted at the information and arguments he presents.

If I have a favourite in this category of books, it would have to be Geza Vermes, "Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea. Ad 30-325." Vermes provides us with a wonderfully drawn picture of the world in which xtianity started. You may already know that from a human (ours) viewpoint, the character we call Jesus was only one among others who were claiming to present divine information. One was Honi-Onias, he started preaching a number of decades before Jesus. Another was Hanina ben Dosa, a contemporary of Jesus and also from Galilee. Both were seen as Elijah-like prophets for their claimed ability to make it rain. Hanina was also celebrated as a healer and with the ability to create wonders.

Finally, in my library, I have a copy of Allen Brent's, "A Political History of Early Christianity." I found this book tough reading, but interesting because Brent examines. the political influences on early christianity, that made it what it is today.

All these authors have spent years studying, likely as much as Freddy F.

No longer chained to WT theology, I explored them and drew my own conclusions.

Why not do the same,

21

King of the North

by pontoon in

i've been out for 13 years.

just wondering who the society is identifying as the king of the north?.

Reasonfirst

Thoughtful Look:!!!

But wasn't the King of the North to be so powerful, that it could challenge the King of the South?

To me, Russia looks like third rate world power. Could maybe make a second rate power, with a bit of WT exaggeration.

But watching the Russian invasion of of Ukraine you couldn't see a major world power in action, could you?

14

How many doubt the GB official teaching about who will survive

by Indoubtbigtime in

i wonder how many have doubts about the gb teaching that only baptised jws would survive the big a?

even then they still only say you may make it as with unbaptised kids of jdubs.

i think most people physically in don’t agree with the gb on this and are hoping jehovah would let other good people into the new world even if they are not baptised jws.

Reasonfirst

The whole biblical concept of a divine war against evil humans is horseshit. Why bother discussing it.

27

So where oh where did Judge Rutherford come up with JW theology?

by Terry in

jw
friends

bits of unreported history that may be of casual interest… as to doctrinal origins.

sykes was one-of-a-kind in the pentecostal movement, but he was considered quite a maverick who went his own way with heretical teachings repugnant to the pentecostal faith.. joshua sykes’ congregation was integrated, unlike pastor russell’s public speeches/sermons where blacks and whites both could attend, but only in separate sections--sykes's members were sitting side by side in the pentecostal church.

this was considered dangerous and inflammatory at the time.. pentecostal preacher joshua sykes practiced racial and gender "integration" as early as 1908 -- having both african-american and female assistant preachers, staffers, and members.

Reasonfirst

Thank you Disillusioned JW, for the following comment:

Quote: 'One time while I reading parts of the Deliverance book (despite me being an atheist) I was so in awe of the reasoning (and facts presented in support of such), and so fond of the joyous message of the content about Christ already ruling and already uplifting human society (and of Christ speaking softly to individual Christians in their minds to instruct them and to direct them, invisibly from heaven), that for several minutes with intense emotion (holding back tears of joy and appreciation) I said out loud to myself "It is true! It is true! It is the truth!" After several minutes of that reaction, I came back to my senses.'

Clearly, I'm no longer part of that organisation, (or, any other religion). Your thoughts resonated with me, because I knew so many who, like myself earnestly believed the biblical promises.

I was a young idealist when I became a JW, it took some 3 years of study before I committed myself and was baptised. I fervently looked forward to the new world as the only way to achieve that ideal world I longed for. I rejoiced that 'the generation' which would see the start of that ideal world was the generation before my own. Therefore, I accepted Freddie's dating* of Armaggedon in 1975 as being about right, even though I had reservations based on Matthew 24:36. But my ideals took a battering, when 1975 came, and half way through that year, Nathan and Freddie arrived in Australia to tell us that it did not appear that the big A was going to start in 1975. Some time later a previous Branch Overseer (Doug Held) came out to visit Aust, and informed us that it could be 20 years away. ...

And so, here we are, near 50 years after 1975, with the generation that began in 1975, now nearing their old age, and much of the claimed associated rationale for 1975 disappearing down the sewer of history (a reference tor the crap about the 7th world power). And not forgetting my own old age, or the fact that soon I will also depart this life, just another idiot disappearing into the dust of history.

I sometimes ponder about Nathan and Freddie, I wonder what conversations/arguments they may have had about 1975 and its failure. I think Nathan (who was an organiser, not a thinker) died not just of cancer, but of a broken heart over the failure of WT hopes. And, why did the HQ staff, make Freddie the LIFE President. Did he insist, or he'd 'spill' the beans? Or, maybe the young Bethelites that ThomasMore referred to (quote: To get his viewpoints, you would have had to follow him to the sauna he frequeted weekly along with other young Bethelites who viewed him as the oracle of WTC, Socrates.') had achieved enough influence to ensure Freddie's life time tenure.

27

So where oh where did Judge Rutherford come up with JW theology?

by Terry in

jw
friends

bits of unreported history that may be of casual interest… as to doctrinal origins.

sykes was one-of-a-kind in the pentecostal movement, but he was considered quite a maverick who went his own way with heretical teachings repugnant to the pentecostal faith.. joshua sykes’ congregation was integrated, unlike pastor russell’s public speeches/sermons where blacks and whites both could attend, but only in separate sections--sykes's members were sitting side by side in the pentecostal church.

this was considered dangerous and inflammatory at the time.. pentecostal preacher joshua sykes practiced racial and gender "integration" as early as 1908 -- having both african-american and female assistant preachers, staffers, and members.

Reasonfirst

Interesting topic!

Particularly,Terry's discussion of the likely influence of J.W.Sykes on the development of Rutherford's theology.

During my years of confinement in the JW's "dark" tower, I never thought of J.F.Rutherford* as an intellectual giant, who had spiritual insights into the mind of an invisible god. I saw him as a 'political organiser,' who could manipulate the existing group and transform into how he saw its fuure (whatever he thought that was). Organisers like Rutherford (and the later Knorr) need someone else to do the intellectual leg-work, and Rutherford found him in the person of F.W.Franz, who had began working at Bethel in 1920 and was promoted by Rutherford (in 1926) be one of the editorial staff engaging in bible research and to be Rutherford's ghost writer for the Watchtower society's publications.

I'm not going to do it (I'm not aware of any in-depth studies on Franz, and I've other interests), but a close study of the intellectual (religious) influences on Franz would be interesting. Reputedly he had his own locked library in Brooklyn, where he kept books that we ordinary door-to-door book salesmen were told, DO NOT READ.

23

2022 WTS Numbers

by blondie in

jw
friends

2022 grand totals.

branches of jehovah’s witnesses: 86. .

number of lands reporting: 239. .

Reasonfirst

What can they expect?

The urgency of the Russel/Rutherford era with its emphasis on 'this generation shall not pass,' has gone along with that first generation of witnesses. Explaining away their failure on that part of the message is very difficult.

You'd have to be a bit dumb not to see that.