Posts by Reasonfirst

20

Watchtower is Run Like the Mafia

by Sea Breeze in

anybody else notice this?

the have a syndicate (governing body) regional bosses (district overseers), captians (circuit overseers), and elders are their "made men" that enforce policy at street level.

if you run your mouth too much, they wipe out your whole family (disfellowshipping).

Reasonfirst

A long, long time ago, when I was young (in years and that org.) I was interested in a girl in the same cong.. Her mother was a witness, but not her father. I thought I'd win some kudos, if I could 'persuade' the father to come to meetings. But he opened up one day and told me that he'd been a witness, and been the WTS's accountant (back in the day when there were only a few thousand witnesses in all of Aust.) and he had left the org. because it was/had become commercialised.

That was news to me, and I nearly left the org. then. But another oldie (Bill Schnieder, if any other Aussie ex-witness recalls that far back), got hold of me and told me what had happened.

Back in the 1930's the WTS had bought a property (in Strathfield NSW) to be the branch office. But it had to be refurbished and buildings constructed for the office and printery. After the purchase, there was no money left for all that work (Aust. still affected by the 1929 depression) and, of course, the org. was very small in Aust. Anyway as they could afford it, they started building some of the above things with volunteer (JW) labour.

Then came 1939 and WW2. and lots of men enlisting in the army (keeping in mind that JWs refused to do military service) but there was still a need for building work and maintenance in the general community. So the relatively few tradies who were working on the the Strathfield Bethel, were suddenly in demand. The word got around in the general community about these guys so then the Branch office started seeking this outside work - and that's how the Aussie office had become commercialised.

That was an interesting time, the branch office was taken over by the government, and although the Bethel family were still allowed to live there, in 1942 the Aust. Army placed 24 hour sentries around the building. The Branch overseer was a guy called Alexander MacGillivray. He was out one night dining somewhere, maybe too well, and when he got back to the Bethel home, the sentry challenged him and MacGillivray said something stupid, so the sentry shot him. Didn't kill him but I was told it was a serious wound.

Anyway, the witnesses took the case to the High court, and in 1943, the government's ban on the Jws was overturned and the Army evicted from Bethel.

Nathan Knorr turned up, as soon as he could after the war ended, and condemned the commercial activities, eventually installing T.Jarasz as Branch servant.

An academic study, by Dr. Jayne Persian (University of Southern Queensland) of the above can be found at: https://www.academia.edu/170809/The_Banning_of_Jehovahs_Witnesses_in_Australia_in_1941

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Attempting to keep an objective view of my (and the WTS's) past I find the comparison of the witnesses to the Mafia rather strange.

We live in a monetised world. (The alternative to bartering). We earn money to buy goods and services. Organisations like churches, have to pay money for their goods. How can they obtain that money. That was the dilemma faced by the Aussie WTS, in my remembered experience way back in my youth. Other churches also face that same dilemma (think, the big-time evangelisers on TV). Think, the RC church in the middle-ages selling indulgences. It's fascinating to know that in the USA, that church (according to the N.Y. Times) has resumed selling indulgences.

Quote: "The fact that many Catholics under 50 have never sought one, and never heard of indulgences except in high school European history (Martin Luther denounced the selling of them in 1517 while igniting the Protestant Reformation), simply makes their reintroduction more urgent among church leaders bent on restoring fading traditions of penance in what they see as a self-satisfied world."

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html#:~:text=You%20cannot%20buy%20one%20%E2%80%94%20the,indulgence%20per%20sinner%20per%20day.

10

Will the Chinese retaliate someday?

by Fisherman in

that’s all we need, to lose china’s economic friendship.

since the chinese explained it was a friendly balloon, shouldn’t we expect the same from china?.

Reasonfirst

There's a lot hot air on this incident.

I doubt that this was a spy balloon, as flying even higher above the earth are spy satellites that can 'see' whatever is happening on the earth, in amazing detail. (check that out-you'll be amazed at what they can see)

The Chinese have some of those, and so does the USA (probably the majority of such satellites), so does it make sense to use balloons.

The best commentary on this incident that I've found, was an article in the Hongkong based Asia Times. Headed, " A Chinese Balloon Exposes an Amazing Vulnerability," the authors were Stephen and Shoshana Bryant (See below for who they are) and in the article claim that this balloon has been, "one of several over time."

Link: https://asiatimes.com/2023/02/a-chinese-balloon-exposes-a-massive-vulnerability/

Stephen Bryen is a senior fellow at the Center for Security Policy and the Yorktown Institute.

Shoshana Bryen is Editor of inFOCUS Quarterly. She has more than 30 years experience as an analyst of US defense policy and Middle East affairs, and has run programs and conferences with American military personnel in a variety of countries.

The Asia Times is own by some sort of syndicate, with the possible majority owner being David Goldman (a former NY Financier), who recently claimed that he voted for Donald Trump as president.

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Reasonfirst

Its all biblical bullshit.

The sad thing is that so much western culture is based on this bullshit.

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Reasonfirst

Some interesting comments that seem to indicate a belief that most members in a church are/were nominal, and "true" Christians need to be in some magical way, informed by god as to what is "true faith."

Have I read this correctly?

I'm also not defending the JWs or their elders? The Jw's hav'nt got "truth" any more than any other group of believers. Throughout history Christians have argued with each other, and even killed each other over "truth."

I've just been re-reading the early Christian document known as First Clement, thought to have been written (possibly) 96CE. Clement, whoever he was, it's claimed he was a presbyter (elder) in he congregation in Rome, and is writing to the congregation in Corinth, which had experienced an extreme division. The writer claims that the Corinth Christian once were, "all humble and without pretensions, obeying orders (who issued those orders?) rather than issuing them."

But things changed, "there arose rivalry and envy, strife and sedition, persecution (i.e. some Christians persecuted other Christians) and anarchy, war an captivity."

And, that's the point I want to make. Churches have always had fights, arguments and schisms. It's unlikely that the Corinth congregation, at the end of the first century was the first to have that experience of heated arguments over doctrines and beliefs and authority.

Now jump forward hundreds of years to England. King Henry V111, well-known for his efforts to oust the Roman Catholic church from England, whatever his reasons. Was he revolting against apostolic authority (Like the Corinthian congregation at the end of the first century - according to Clement?) What do you think?

But go forward in time, to Elizabeth the first. The church in England was now controlled by men who were like the rebellious Christians of ancient Corinth. From the viewpoint of the Lord (the father or Jesus - take your choice) were the men who rebelled against Rome right in what they did, according to Clement? This (sort of) new church in England, the fore-runner of the contemporary Anglican Church, then set about murdering many of those who remained faithful to Catholicism. In doing so were they like the ancient rebellious Christians of Corinth.

(See the HistoryExtra web-site: Elizabeth I’s war with England’s Catholics:

England's Elizabethan Catholics were public enemy number one. Their Masses were banned and their priests were executed. Jessie Childs reveals what life was like for 'recusants' and 'church papists' in a hostile Protestant state

https://www.historyextra.com/period/tudor/elizabeth-is-war-with-englands-catholics/

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Answering the questions I asked is difficult, Who was right? Who was wrong?

I'd say (these days) they were all deceived into thinking that they'd found "truth" when they had not. I don't believe any of the crap they were arguing about, they were all deceived.

8

My experience as a JW for 37 years. I dogded the bullet that many of you experienced .

by smiddy3 in

hi friend`s ,i just had to share my experience ,and surely there must be others on this board who had similar experiences that i had.. i was a jw for 37 years ,been out for about 20 years or so .however we as a family never had the problems that so many of you seem to have had .. none of our, my wife and i , immediate families have ever been jw`s.. i converted when i was about 20 years old in about 1960 and as i say remained in converted my wife and brought up two sons in the "truth" for about 37 years .. my 1st and 2nd congregations i attended in melbourne aust.

were very conservative and not very wholesome looking back.. however moving interstate to s.e.queensland in redcliffe was a whole new experience.. it was far more liberal and relaxed.. i befriend a couple of elders and ms `s who enjoyed an ale or two which was right up my alley.. and we went on camping expeditions on both fraser and moreton islands ,both just off the coast of brisbane.. i was a ms for many years there never pioneered or served where the need was great and always had steady employment in the world which probably kept my head above the clouds so to speak.. none of my family ,wife two boys and their wives are jw`s ,we have all left many years ago.. anybody else had negative effects of being a witness for many years ?.

Reasonfirst

Curiously, Smiddy, I was recently thinking something similar. I wondered what sort of a person I would have been if I had not become a Jw? I cant arrive at any conclusion to that question. I was just 17, and a professed atheist, when a little crisis in my life caused me to listen to a JW.

I can think of some happy occasions in my theocratic life - one day in a remote part of our (then) territory, we were all singing kingdom songs as we walked the long distances between houses. Another spring day, when my pioneer partner and I cycled some 10 miles to cover a village (about 50 houses). We felt so happy with the wind in our hair, and enough sunshine to make us feel great. No interest in the town - but that didn't dampen our spirits. There was a goods train in that little town's rail siding, and the driver gave us a lift back to the town we lived in.

I've known some elders, I'd prefer not have met. And, some whose friendships were valuable. And for the guys at the top something similar. I've mentioned in a previous post that I found Ted Jarasz very cold, but other's whose names (after near 35 years out) mostly escape me were different. I took near 3 years before I got baptised and some were critical about that, but one District Ser., and American (in Jarasz's batch of assignments to Aust) by name of John Cutforth, spoke to me caringly and lovingly and said to take my time because it was an important step. John Wilson was another brother who I found a very caring guy.

I got out of step with the Jws in 1975, after Nathan K, came out from the USA and told us that they'd been wrong about 19759 and that it was Freddie's fault. Well, considering the fervour about that failed date, what else could I think? It took a few more years but eventually I was kicked out. It too a few years to regain my equilibrium, but my godless life is far satisfying than my god-filled life.

Generally, I did not find aussie witnesses (or, most elders) to have he same characteristics that are often described here.

3

Christianity's teaching/s 'untenable' and out of step with society....

by BoogerMan in

....according to lesbian comedienne.

"the archbishop of canterbury has conceded progress on same-sex marriage in the church of england would be "glacial", sandi toksvig has said.

the comedian revealed she had met justin welby for a "long-promised coffee" and the meeting had been "calm and considered", but the church's position was "untenable".

Reasonfirst

.... and the Pope has very recently pronounced that, "homosexuality is not a crime." How that sits with the conservative clergy in his church is still unknown (at least to me). It's interesting that he apparently decided to use the word 'crime' and not 'sin.' What affect this has on penitent 'gays' is also not apparent.

But certainly, as punkofnice commented: "it's not only Jobots that get 'new light(tm)'."

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Reasonfirst

Response to Jhine,

Jan, you did not offend me. I responded (the way I did) to provide some background to the comments I've made. And thank you for your compliment.

I agree that we should try to understand all viewpoints, but I guess we all fail sometimes, I know I do too. And, it's always difficult, if not impossible, to obtain All the information on a specific topic.

For example, this morning, access to an Academic paper on Academia was in my email, the paper deals with Zoroastrian influence on Judaism- to understand all of that may take months, and I don't think I want to spend all that time on that subject, yet it is a fascinating possibility.

And, sometimes evidence is offered beyond normal human perceptions. Just how, as an example would any god speak (inform us) to our hearts? I've had people believing in some other religion (other than xtianity) say something similar. So is that a supernatural personage, acting in a way that we do not understand, doing that? Or, is there some part of our normal mind (brain) acting in a way that we do not yet understand?

Again, I thank you for your compliment to me.

34

Elders are no longer teachers

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

back in the day when i was a young witness lad, you very much got the impression that at least the training as theocratic teachers was good.. even the bible reading back then had a short introduction and conclusion.

you had to research and prepare your own ministry school talks and then perhaps you would graduate to a half of a 55 minute public talk.

then later if you were a book study conductor, you got to decide which scriptures to read and highlight.

Reasonfirst

That's not new - in my experience, most elders could kill anything interesting in whatever they were talking about.

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Reasonfirst

Jhine commented (about me): "Reasonfirst did you also read literature that presents the Christian perspective? We all tend to be guilty of conformation bias."

When I was 4, I started school at a Catholic school. My father's sister was a nun and she hoped (so I was later led to believe) she hoped I'd become a good catholic.

But my mother was an Anglican and she'd had had, me baptised in that church

When I was 13 (I think) I was confirmed in the Anglican church. But later I started to try an think things out and became agnostic

And, then later still I became a JW, and spent hours studying the bible, eventually becoming a special pioneer and congregation servant (later an elder).

Later still (after 1975) I was kicked out.

So then, I started studying again to re-examine my position, and found no good reason to believe that the bible was god inspired. So I became an athiest.

And then (now a pensioner) I decided to study history at a University. One of my close lecturers was an Anglican and I decided to take some religious topics as part of my history degree.

So I enrolled in these topics:

Early Christian Literature and Thought.

Myth in the Ancient World.

Religion along the Silk Road, That was informative, as it led me to the Manicheans, once almost the dominant religion in Asia, and possible the first christian influenced religion to have a presence in China (Still one of their temples there).

Second Temple Judaism

Early Christianity - From Constantine to Theodora,

Classical Tradition and Thought.

Byzantine Studies.

Persians, Jews and Christians.

Over a number of years, I undertook more topics then were necessary for my BA, so that I could examine other historical topics that I thought of as under-studied in our Anglo-dominated world.

Curiously, for my capstone essay, I did did a sort of analysis of Boyarin's concept of Daniel's vision of the 'Son of Man.' It was marked by a fervent Christian believer, who said it was tosh.(Boyarin sees an old god, investing a role for a younger god) I asked for his mark to be reviewed and received a much higher mark from the faculty.

Also in my small library, I have 4 volumes of 'New Documents Illustrating Early Christianity.'

and, Witherington's, New Testament History.

And, Introducing the New Testament: Its Literature and Theology. (Achtemeier, Green and Thompson)

Finally, I was not restricting anyone's right to think (think whatever you like) but, if that thought is posted in a forum like this, why would you expect that it should go untested.

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Reasonfirst

response to the-Mad-JW;

Of course he's serious, because SB's comment illustrates the problem with xtianity. it's all about opinions and not truth.

As Ehrman says in the General Introduction to the book I mentioned in a previous post:

Quote: "Christianity during the first three centuries of the Common Era was remarkably diverse."

and a little further,

Quote: "... very few people ...outside the ranks of the professional scholar, realize the diverse character of the religion in its earliest period ... early Christians engaged in heated and often acrimonious debates over fundamental issues..."

Constantine's acceptance, that the church was unlikely to vanish, and his political support gave the hierarchy that he helped select and supported, an opportunity to squash that unregulated argumentation and push it outside the officially supported "church."