Posts by Reasonfirst

4

How tall was Goliath?

by joey jojo in

goliath was a big dude, 6 cubits and a span, or about 9 feet 9 inches.

the septuagint version of the bible and the dead sea scrolls, on the other hand, both state his height as 4 cubits and a span, or 6 feet 9 inches.. his armour weighed a bit over 40 kg, about the same weight as a modern soldier would carry.

his spear sounds impressively heavy at 600 shekels, however , this is only about 6 kg (13 lbs), easily carried by a man of average strength, let alone someone with training.. the difference lies in whether we should believe the masoretic version of the bible, or the septuagint.. the masoretic text was written about 1000 years later than the septuagint and it is what the new world translation and a lot of protestant bibles are based on.. although the septuagint was accepted by 1st century jews, it is believed that medieval jews were not happy with the septuagint, as it lent weight to the argument that pointed to jesus as the messiah and they wanted to distinguish the jewish tradition from christianity.. jesus and other new testament writers (whoever they were) quoted the septuagint.. in an effort to support his own world view and to distance himself from the catholic church, martin luther chose the masoretic text over the septuagint on which to base his translation, which is ironic as the masoretic text was written, partly to separate itself from christianity.. when someone says they 'believe the bible', or, they 'live their life on what the bible says'- can that person really explain how they can trust the history and process of whatever bible they believe in came to be?.

Reasonfirst

So think about it?

Several versions of the David and Goliath story, Which one was inspired?

Can we really bel;ieve that the old man in the sky "inspired" humans to write his propaganda?

48

No more public WT & Awake?

by mikeflood in

have you guys noticed, this year 2023 no more public edition magazines...i wonder how they are gonna spin that fact.

Reasonfirst

Since I'm now old and nearing the end of my life, I'm not having many new experiences to remember, so one of the things my mind does (to keep itself busy) is to regurgitate old ones.

So no more print magazines. Oh! Shit! Have I got some memories.

Yeah! The day I arrived at a new special pioneer assignment (the previous guys had thoughtfully left the tenancy of an old one room farm building for me), and on the table was a stack of several hundreds of WTs and Awakes, still rolled up in the bundles, as posted by the WTS. This I think, was a hangover from Russell's days when bible societies (not only the WT bible and Tract one) would provide bible literature to 'colporteurs' at highly reduced rates to support themselves while flogging bible shit across the country.

A Circus serpent, (Ron Walters, if any Aussie remembers him) arrived shortly after, and I innocently asked him what to do with those old magazines. He snapped back at me, "Place them, of course." This NSW country town had a population of about 4000 and my only transport was a bike to cover the sparse rural areas.

I thought about it for a while, and concluded the mags deserved a christian burial. The soil around my hut was too hard, So I biked a few km out of town. to a bridge over a nearly dry creek, and buried them under the bridge.

It rained a few days later, and the next time i went over that bridge, I found that the rain had caused the creek to flow, and the mags. were floating, reproachfully, face up to old YHWH.

19

Are Jehovah's Witnesses who are disfellowshipped allowed to communicate and comfort each other while waiting to be reinstated?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i just read about a disfellowshipped person who was looking for other disfellowshipped persons to socialize with.

what does the org have to say about this?.

Reasonfirst

My funny story about associating with another DFed witness.

I have a FB page associated with the degree I did some years ago (it's about Asian History). Anyway, one day I saw the name of a Jw, who had first studied with me. It turned out to be him.

I asked if he was willing to have a conversation? He said yes, so we did. He said he could talk to me as he was disfellowshipped. That shocked me. He came from a good JW family, had been a Circuit OS, and a Gilead graduate and a missionary.

So I asked why he was outed? And, he told me the story. His first wife had died and a few years later he'd married an Asian woman (also a JW). He claims he came home early one day and found her in bed with 3 men. Wow! So he started divorce proceedings, But when the elder's asked the wife if the story was true, she denied his claim.

Result, the elders disfellowshipped him.

Is his story true, and if I hadn't known him so well in the past, I wouldn't have believed it, and I really don't care either way. A little while later he refused to talk anymore, so I guess he was seeking re-instatement.

20

Watchtower is Run Like the Mafia

by Sea Breeze in

anybody else notice this?

the have a syndicate (governing body) regional bosses (district overseers), captians (circuit overseers), and elders are their "made men" that enforce policy at street level.

if you run your mouth too much, they wipe out your whole family (disfellowshipping).

Reasonfirst

Seabreeze to me: "Open your eyes. It is a successful business model. They bring your family into a conflict when necessary to control you and to protect their "thing". It is so successful they are quite adept at convincing you to even commit suicide... or at least forfeit the authenticity of your life, which is a type of death."

Sb, are your own eyes really open? Or, maybe your just short-sighted. I'm not attempting to spoil your fun in slinging shit at the Jws, many have been hurt by WT policies, but objectively, not all witnesses, or all elders are like gangsters.

Your analogy of the mafia can be applied to all churches, why not compare Xtianity, with its threats that unbelievers will burn in hell forever, to the mafia also. It's the same business model.

Paul stated that those who are 'false' teachers are anathema. But how to decide who is a false teacher?

Years later, when the early church had started to use episkopos as church leaders, Origen, commenting on Matthew's gospel (in the 240 C.E decade.), wrote that the Bishop's "terrify people, and make themselves inaccessible, especially if people are poor ... we behave as no tyrant would."

That's real gangster style isn't it? It's the same 'business model.' Why not make it clear that early christianity was the model.

20

Watchtower is Run Like the Mafia

by Sea Breeze in

anybody else notice this?

the have a syndicate (governing body) regional bosses (district overseers), captians (circuit overseers), and elders are their "made men" that enforce policy at street level.

if you run your mouth too much, they wipe out your whole family (disfellowshipping).

Reasonfirst

to joe134cd: Yes! These days few jws would know of those events during WW2. Even then (early 1950s) it was not generally discussed. I was young then and am now old, so I guess, is everyone else from my youth, and those who witnessed the events are even older. So the fact that a University academic took time to research the event is useful.

As far as the WTS is concerned, they'd probably like the 'sins' of the Aussie branch to be forgotten.

Though, strangely, a Gilead graduate once told me that the Aussie branch's deviation from the party line was mentioned in the lectures at Gilead, and held up as an example of what 'could' happen at the end of the 1000 years.

20

Watchtower is Run Like the Mafia

by Sea Breeze in

anybody else notice this?

the have a syndicate (governing body) regional bosses (district overseers), captians (circuit overseers), and elders are their "made men" that enforce policy at street level.

if you run your mouth too much, they wipe out your whole family (disfellowshipping).

Reasonfirst

A long, long time ago, when I was young (in years and that org.) I was interested in a girl in the same cong.. Her mother was a witness, but not her father. I thought I'd win some kudos, if I could 'persuade' the father to come to meetings. But he opened up one day and told me that he'd been a witness, and been the WTS's accountant (back in the day when there were only a few thousand witnesses in all of Aust.) and he had left the org. because it was/had become commercialised.

That was news to me, and I nearly left the org. then. But another oldie (Bill Schnieder, if any other Aussie ex-witness recalls that far back), got hold of me and told me what had happened.

Back in the 1930's the WTS had bought a property (in Strathfield NSW) to be the branch office. But it had to be refurbished and buildings constructed for the office and printery. After the purchase, there was no money left for all that work (Aust. still affected by the 1929 depression) and, of course, the org. was very small in Aust. Anyway as they could afford it, they started building some of the above things with volunteer (JW) labour.

Then came 1939 and WW2. and lots of men enlisting in the army (keeping in mind that JWs refused to do military service) but there was still a need for building work and maintenance in the general community. So the relatively few tradies who were working on the the Strathfield Bethel, were suddenly in demand. The word got around in the general community about these guys so then the Branch office started seeking this outside work - and that's how the Aussie office had become commercialised.

That was an interesting time, the branch office was taken over by the government, and although the Bethel family were still allowed to live there, in 1942 the Aust. Army placed 24 hour sentries around the building. The Branch overseer was a guy called Alexander MacGillivray. He was out one night dining somewhere, maybe too well, and when he got back to the Bethel home, the sentry challenged him and MacGillivray said something stupid, so the sentry shot him. Didn't kill him but I was told it was a serious wound.

Anyway, the witnesses took the case to the High court, and in 1943, the government's ban on the Jws was overturned and the Army evicted from Bethel.

Nathan Knorr turned up, as soon as he could after the war ended, and condemned the commercial activities, eventually installing T.Jarasz as Branch servant.

An academic study, by Dr. Jayne Persian (University of Southern Queensland) of the above can be found at: https://www.academia.edu/170809/The_Banning_of_Jehovahs_Witnesses_in_Australia_in_1941

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Attempting to keep an objective view of my (and the WTS's) past I find the comparison of the witnesses to the Mafia rather strange.

We live in a monetised world. (The alternative to bartering). We earn money to buy goods and services. Organisations like churches, have to pay money for their goods. How can they obtain that money. That was the dilemma faced by the Aussie WTS, in my remembered experience way back in my youth. Other churches also face that same dilemma (think, the big-time evangelisers on TV). Think, the RC church in the middle-ages selling indulgences. It's fascinating to know that in the USA, that church (according to the N.Y. Times) has resumed selling indulgences.

Quote: "The fact that many Catholics under 50 have never sought one, and never heard of indulgences except in high school European history (Martin Luther denounced the selling of them in 1517 while igniting the Protestant Reformation), simply makes their reintroduction more urgent among church leaders bent on restoring fading traditions of penance in what they see as a self-satisfied world."

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html#:~:text=You%20cannot%20buy%20one%20%E2%80%94%20the,indulgence%20per%20sinner%20per%20day.

10

Will the Chinese retaliate someday?

by Fisherman in

that’s all we need, to lose china’s economic friendship.

since the chinese explained it was a friendly balloon, shouldn’t we expect the same from china?.

Reasonfirst

There's a lot hot air on this incident.

I doubt that this was a spy balloon, as flying even higher above the earth are spy satellites that can 'see' whatever is happening on the earth, in amazing detail. (check that out-you'll be amazed at what they can see)

The Chinese have some of those, and so does the USA (probably the majority of such satellites), so does it make sense to use balloons.

The best commentary on this incident that I've found, was an article in the Hongkong based Asia Times. Headed, " A Chinese Balloon Exposes an Amazing Vulnerability," the authors were Stephen and Shoshana Bryant (See below for who they are) and in the article claim that this balloon has been, "one of several over time."

Link: https://asiatimes.com/2023/02/a-chinese-balloon-exposes-a-massive-vulnerability/

Stephen Bryen is a senior fellow at the Center for Security Policy and the Yorktown Institute.

Shoshana Bryen is Editor of inFOCUS Quarterly. She has more than 30 years experience as an analyst of US defense policy and Middle East affairs, and has run programs and conferences with American military personnel in a variety of countries.

The Asia Times is own by some sort of syndicate, with the possible majority owner being David Goldman (a former NY Financier), who recently claimed that he voted for Donald Trump as president.

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Reasonfirst

Its all biblical bullshit.

The sad thing is that so much western culture is based on this bullshit.

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Reasonfirst

Some interesting comments that seem to indicate a belief that most members in a church are/were nominal, and "true" Christians need to be in some magical way, informed by god as to what is "true faith."

Have I read this correctly?

I'm also not defending the JWs or their elders? The Jw's hav'nt got "truth" any more than any other group of believers. Throughout history Christians have argued with each other, and even killed each other over "truth."

I've just been re-reading the early Christian document known as First Clement, thought to have been written (possibly) 96CE. Clement, whoever he was, it's claimed he was a presbyter (elder) in he congregation in Rome, and is writing to the congregation in Corinth, which had experienced an extreme division. The writer claims that the Corinth Christian once were, "all humble and without pretensions, obeying orders (who issued those orders?) rather than issuing them."

But things changed, "there arose rivalry and envy, strife and sedition, persecution (i.e. some Christians persecuted other Christians) and anarchy, war an captivity."

And, that's the point I want to make. Churches have always had fights, arguments and schisms. It's unlikely that the Corinth congregation, at the end of the first century was the first to have that experience of heated arguments over doctrines and beliefs and authority.

Now jump forward hundreds of years to England. King Henry V111, well-known for his efforts to oust the Roman Catholic church from England, whatever his reasons. Was he revolting against apostolic authority (Like the Corinthian congregation at the end of the first century - according to Clement?) What do you think?

But go forward in time, to Elizabeth the first. The church in England was now controlled by men who were like the rebellious Christians of ancient Corinth. From the viewpoint of the Lord (the father or Jesus - take your choice) were the men who rebelled against Rome right in what they did, according to Clement? This (sort of) new church in England, the fore-runner of the contemporary Anglican Church, then set about murdering many of those who remained faithful to Catholicism. In doing so were they like the ancient rebellious Christians of Corinth.

(See the HistoryExtra web-site: Elizabeth I’s war with England’s Catholics:

England's Elizabethan Catholics were public enemy number one. Their Masses were banned and their priests were executed. Jessie Childs reveals what life was like for 'recusants' and 'church papists' in a hostile Protestant state

https://www.historyextra.com/period/tudor/elizabeth-is-war-with-englands-catholics/

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Answering the questions I asked is difficult, Who was right? Who was wrong?

I'd say (these days) they were all deceived into thinking that they'd found "truth" when they had not. I don't believe any of the crap they were arguing about, they were all deceived.

8

My experience as a JW for 37 years. I dogded the bullet that many of you experienced .

by smiddy3 in

hi friend`s ,i just had to share my experience ,and surely there must be others on this board who had similar experiences that i had.. i was a jw for 37 years ,been out for about 20 years or so .however we as a family never had the problems that so many of you seem to have had .. none of our, my wife and i , immediate families have ever been jw`s.. i converted when i was about 20 years old in about 1960 and as i say remained in converted my wife and brought up two sons in the "truth" for about 37 years .. my 1st and 2nd congregations i attended in melbourne aust.

were very conservative and not very wholesome looking back.. however moving interstate to s.e.queensland in redcliffe was a whole new experience.. it was far more liberal and relaxed.. i befriend a couple of elders and ms `s who enjoyed an ale or two which was right up my alley.. and we went on camping expeditions on both fraser and moreton islands ,both just off the coast of brisbane.. i was a ms for many years there never pioneered or served where the need was great and always had steady employment in the world which probably kept my head above the clouds so to speak.. none of my family ,wife two boys and their wives are jw`s ,we have all left many years ago.. anybody else had negative effects of being a witness for many years ?.

Reasonfirst

Curiously, Smiddy, I was recently thinking something similar. I wondered what sort of a person I would have been if I had not become a Jw? I cant arrive at any conclusion to that question. I was just 17, and a professed atheist, when a little crisis in my life caused me to listen to a JW.

I can think of some happy occasions in my theocratic life - one day in a remote part of our (then) territory, we were all singing kingdom songs as we walked the long distances between houses. Another spring day, when my pioneer partner and I cycled some 10 miles to cover a village (about 50 houses). We felt so happy with the wind in our hair, and enough sunshine to make us feel great. No interest in the town - but that didn't dampen our spirits. There was a goods train in that little town's rail siding, and the driver gave us a lift back to the town we lived in.

I've known some elders, I'd prefer not have met. And, some whose friendships were valuable. And for the guys at the top something similar. I've mentioned in a previous post that I found Ted Jarasz very cold, but other's whose names (after near 35 years out) mostly escape me were different. I took near 3 years before I got baptised and some were critical about that, but one District Ser., and American (in Jarasz's batch of assignments to Aust) by name of John Cutforth, spoke to me caringly and lovingly and said to take my time because it was an important step. John Wilson was another brother who I found a very caring guy.

I got out of step with the Jws in 1975, after Nathan K, came out from the USA and told us that they'd been wrong about 19759 and that it was Freddie's fault. Well, considering the fervour about that failed date, what else could I think? It took a few more years but eventually I was kicked out. It too a few years to regain my equilibrium, but my godless life is far satisfying than my god-filled life.

Generally, I did not find aussie witnesses (or, most elders) to have he same characteristics that are often described here.