Crazyguy2, I understand why you might perceive that as a problem. They do conflict, somewhat, don't they? But, what did Jesus say, according to the Bible? And, the entire letter to the Romans was not a prophecy offered in symbols about future events at a later time, but about how Christians should view things in general, no?
The letter of Romans literally states that no one should be judging one another about <drumroll!> opinions! What has the Governing Body stated their interpretations are? Oh, yes, that's right. Opinions. "Best surmises." They directly defy what Romans says when they judge others over differences of opinions, especially when they do so over opinions about interpretations, and Revelation says nothing at all to contradict that point made in Romans.
Afterburn
JoinedPosts by Afterburn
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What Jesus' Return Would Mean for JWs, According to the Bible
by Afterburn inon the last day, jesus returns, and 8,000,000 jehovah's witnesses are shocked that he didn't return invisibly.
remembering the account of stephen, they know if they can see him, they can speak directly to him, so they line up proudly to be rewarded for all they've done for his brothers.. "lord, lord," they happily cry out, "just look what all we have done in your name!".
"i know," jesus says, "i saw.
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Afterburn
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What Jesus' Return Would Mean for JWs, According to the Bible
by Afterburn inon the last day, jesus returns, and 8,000,000 jehovah's witnesses are shocked that he didn't return invisibly.
remembering the account of stephen, they know if they can see him, they can speak directly to him, so they line up proudly to be rewarded for all they've done for his brothers.. "lord, lord," they happily cry out, "just look what all we have done in your name!".
"i know," jesus says, "i saw.
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Afterburn
On the last day, Jesus returns, and 8,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses are shocked that he didn't return invisibly. Remembering the account of Stephen, they know if they can see him, they can speak directly to him, so they line up proudly to be rewarded for all they've done for his brothers.
"Lord, Lord," they happily cry out, "just look what all we have done in your name!"
"I know," Jesus says, "I saw. Your cult taught millions of people to ignore my repeated, crystal clear instructions to come to me. I do not know any of you, personally, because you have waited until now to speak directly to me. Did you not know that I am to be your judge? Did you not know that I began ruling as King of Kings and Lord of Lords in the first century? Did you not read any of the letters my disciples left for you?"
Elder Tireless, the oldest among them, a man of 97 years, all of them spent in faithful service to the religion, steps forward and with a shaking, unsteady voice says, meekly, "But Lord, did we not spread explanations of prophecy in your name? Did we not cast out unrepentant sinners from our midst in your name? Did we not silence all who presumptuously questioned your Faithful and Discreet Slave class in your name? Did we not preach to all the world the good news that you would eventually come to lovingly terminate the lives of billions of people so we could live in their houses, in your name? Did we not regularly meet together to partake of spiritual food you provided, and convince millions of people to join us, all in your name?"
Jesus shouts, "I did not command any of that! You have all rejected my commands in favor of the commands of men! You didn't even follow the most simple one, 'Come to me!' Even a small child can understand that command. Did I not say, 'Approach the kingdom of heavens as a child?' Who is it that you fed that was hungry? Who is it that you clothed that was naked? Who did you shelter in their need? Who was in prison that you visited? Only those from whom you also received something? Members of a mythical 'slave class' that you pretended I spoke about, from whom you believed you were receiving better truth than I could give you, by the teacher I told you that you must receive, the Holy Spirit? Or did you serve the least of these, my siblings? Did you serve those who could not possibly repay? Hypocrites! You literally shut up the kingdom of heavens before men, by removing from them a personal relationship with me! I am the narrow gate and the gatekeeper, did you not read? Or did you read ... and not get the sense of it?"
Kneeling close to Elder Tireless, Jesus quietly, and sternly says, "You personally judged, persecuted, and punished people for violating commands of mere men; for violating the opinions of men who falsely claimed to speak for me, literally, in place of me. Did you not read in the letter to the Romans that no one should be judging another over differences of opinion? But you did read it, and you ignored it, preferring instead the false stories of liars who spoke falsely in my name. Did you never read what my disciple Matthew wrote about that? Did you learn nothing at all from John recounting the blind man I healed, and how the Jews responded? You were never appointed by me to stand in judgment in my place, the Pharisees sat in Moses' seat of judgment exactly as you seated yourself in mine."
Jesus continues, as the crowd murmurs uncomfortably in dawning awareness of the accuracy of his words. Shifting his eyes among the elders he can most readily spot, "When did I ever breathe one single word about 'paradise earth' or 'two hopes?' You lied to the world about my good news of a reconciled relationship to God. And how dare you twist my words and those of my disciples to justify secret meetings of judgment, a thing that never once came into my heart to do to another human. Did you not read that you should judge nothing until the appointed time, and that I would be doing the judging? Did you not see Paul's counsel to Timothy that all reproof should be given before all onlookers? Did you not care that the Sanhedrin that convened to convict me falsely as a blasphemer, did so in direct violation of the law at a time when it would not be public? You imitated the Pharisees, not me, not my disciples. Did you have no fear that I would hold you in judgment for the cruelty you did in secret, in my name?"
He stands again, as a somber hush falls over everyone, tears streaming from Elder Tireless' old eyes. Only his sobs heard.
Jesus continues, speaking loudly enough for all to hear, "Worst, of all the things each of you did, you taught people that I was a false God, and that speaking directly to me would be an act of idolatry. I instructed everyone to come to me, to drink from me, to learn from me, to be refreshed by me. Repeatedly. Routinely. You taught them all to ignore me. Paul explained repeatedly that his ministry was one of reconciliation, through me as the mediator, and you publicly denied the truth of his words. Instead, you preached a message of dedication to a religion, the antithesis of my teachings. The first time I came, it was to end religions and to provide a way for each of you to have a reconciled personal relationship with God. That was my entire purpose in coming. Did you not read that I said 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life?' Did you not understand from this that I am the way of entry into the naos, into the very temple of God, through the curtain of my sacrificed flesh? Paul told you. Did you not read? Did you not understand that I am all three curtains through which the High Priest would annually pass, in addition to being your High Priest and King?"
With a deep sigh, Jesus finishes, "You know you are sinners, and all I told you that you needed to do was to come to me, personally, and seek from me a restored relationship with God. You and I would have worked out your personal salvation between us, individually. You did not seek me out for what I offered you. You never once approached the way of entry into the temple, you never even approached the narrow gate that leads to life. Because you never did so, your sins remain. I never knew you. Get away from me, you workers of iniquity."
According to the Bible, that is what Jesus' return would mean for Jehovah's Witnesses. I urge you, please don't take my word for it. I'm a stranger on the Internet. The full and irrefutable proof of my claim is right there in your own Bible.
Supporting Scriptures:
- John 3
- John 6-10
- John 14-16
- Matthew 7:13-23
- Matthew 15
- Matthew 28:18-20
- Hebrews (the whole letter, paying attention to the timing of Jesus' commencing of role as King and High Priest)
- 2 Corinthians 5:11-6:2
- 1 Timothy 2:1-7
- Matthew 23
- Hebrews 10:5-25 (Yeah, yeah, I know, you just read it ... humor me)
- Acts (the whole letter, looking carefully for any example of Christian baptism that required a prayer of dedication or any public declaration of loyalty to any religion)
- Galatians 1:6-9
- Romans (the whole letter, looking carefully for where anyone is authorized to judge besides Jesus)
These "books" were letters. Read them as what they were. Learn how first century Christians actively put into practice what they had been taught, and mark well where their practices differ from the practices of Jehovah's Witnesses. You will soon find that there is very little Scriptural support for any element of Christian worship as carried out by Jehovah's Witnesses. They are lying to the whole world. Their whole cult is based on twisted opinions of very few men applied to Scriptures.
DISCLAIMER: I am capable of observing what the Bible does and does not teach. Any writing of mine that discusses the Bible or that challenges JW teachings based on the Bible will always be presented from the perspective of someone who does believe the Bible is the infallible, inspired word of God.
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So how "worldly" did you get after you left the "truth"
by greenhornet ini don't drive a 4 door car.
lol.
i go to a local christian church.
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Afterburn
Yes, fulano. I am no longer a Regular or Regular Auxiliary Pioneer.
Also, I am no longer a Ministerial Servant, I no longer conduct the weekly book study (which I'm not even sure they still have, anymore), I no longer read the Watchtower and Awake! or prepare for any meetings, I don't frequently volunteer for impromptu talks #2 or #4 in case the assigned person didn't show up.
They generally frown upon sweaty Leather Daddy Bears representing Jehovah's Witnesses on their stages. -
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Who Is He?
by APieceOfShitNamedTate inwho is this brother on an appeal committee @4:00?.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nflfchtsca.
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Afterburn
What they teach changes, constantly, so even if you did accept what they taught at one point in time, you would have to have committed to believe anything they might potentially teach in the future, no matter what they teach, which I certainly did not do at the time of my baptism at age 12.
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Running Ahead of the Organization
by Sea Breeze inthat was a phrase that used to irritate me to no end.
good thing this woman wasn't a jw.
some people just can't wait.
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Afterburn
When I was 16 years old, I asked the Circuit Overseer whenever the Organization published an explanation of prophecy that later turned out to be wrong, hadn't they run ahead of Jehovah, on the basis of Genesis 40:8? He really did not like that question, at all. Neither did my dad, the Presiding Overseer of our congregation, at the time.
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So how "worldly" did you get after you left the "truth"
by greenhornet ini don't drive a 4 door car.
lol.
i go to a local christian church.
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Afterburn
This will be fun. Let's see, I'm tattooed, they wouldn't like that very much, but it wasn't out of any act of rebellion.
Oh, and I am a community covered Leather Master (sweaty Leather Daddy Bear), I'm openly queer, I'm a national educator on BDSM topics related to consensual power exchange (i.e. Dominant/submissive, Daddy or Mommy/little, Owner/pet, Master or Mistress or Mx/slave) relationships and on the topic of Leather History in the United States, I haven't acquired any STIs and hope to keep it that way, I'm a bearded "sexual deviant" who owns a slave/little girl/kitten, I routinely counter-protest Bible thumping evilgelicals who seek to silence or demonize trans people or anyone else in an LGBTQUIA+ marginalized group, I am an active social advocate for human rights applying equally to all humans (and no, I don't mean a keyboard warrior).
I hope to formally start a church soon: Church of Universal Pervaciousness. I currently have a group of people submitting books to build what will be our religious order's Scripture. Very different perspectives from very divergent backgrounds in each book, set to a common overall "tone." The Church will promote engagement in and delight in consensual perversity as a sacred spiritual act of worship offered to the Universe; and will impose no penalties, at all (social or otherwise), for choosing not to do so ... voyeurism and exhibitionism will be celebrated as activities that connect to the Universal Divine.
If the church becomes international, it will be I.C.U.P. and that's just delightful to me, on an entirely sophomoric level.
I suspect any of that would be extremely unwelcome, among Jehovah's Witnesses, except for intending to avoid STIs. While I acknowledge that as a simple fact, the reality is that how a rather insignificant filthy little cult would perceive anything in my life has nothing whatsoever to do with any choice I make. -
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Enjoyed the Memorial
by ScottyRex inprobably not a popular opinion on here....and haven't been actively attending meetings since 1988....(i know i know a submarine attender) however thoroughly enjoyed attending this evening...was good to see lots of people i remember whilst growing up in this faith, they were genuine and the whole atmosphere was one of love.
sure if i suddenly wanted to become active again and didn't change my lifestyle they would drop me like a bomb.....however i haven't and won't and they didn't and don't.
this works for me.. i cannot demonize the witnesses on what i have seen tonight.
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Afterburn
So, if I understand this thread correctly, a purportedly gay guy just pops in every now and again to see who he can stir up by lying to them. Is that right? Feeding trolls just makes them stronger.
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New Book: Pure Worship of Jehovah—Restored At Last!
by Afterburn init is a new book, now available on their website in pdf, and it is basically an update to survival—into a new earth!
(1984), the book that convinced me to get baptized at age 12.. i'm not going to review the entire book here.. because matthew 28:18-20 specifies baptizing as part of the great commission, and because hebrews 6:1-2 lists the teaching on baptisms as among the primary doctrine about the christ, i intend to focus on the portion of the new publication that deals with baptism.. in chapter 16, on pages 178 and 179, paragraph 17 states:.
17 to survive the coming destruction, individuals need to prove their faith now.
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Afterburn
Thanks, mikeflood, Bobcat, and Slidin Fast.
Finkelstein, your post reminds me of Ezekiel 13, with a splash of 1 John 4:1, for good measure.
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New Book: Pure Worship of Jehovah—Restored At Last!
by Afterburn init is a new book, now available on their website in pdf, and it is basically an update to survival—into a new earth!
(1984), the book that convinced me to get baptized at age 12.. i'm not going to review the entire book here.. because matthew 28:18-20 specifies baptizing as part of the great commission, and because hebrews 6:1-2 lists the teaching on baptisms as among the primary doctrine about the christ, i intend to focus on the portion of the new publication that deals with baptism.. in chapter 16, on pages 178 and 179, paragraph 17 states:.
17 to survive the coming destruction, individuals need to prove their faith now.
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Afterburn
It is a new book, now available on their Website in PDF, and it is basically an update to Survival—Into a New Earth! (1984), the book that convinced me to get baptized at age 12.
I'm not going to review the entire book here.
Because Matthew 28:18-20 specifies baptizing as part of the Great Commission, and because Hebrews 6:1-2 lists the teaching on baptisms as among the primary doctrine about the Christ, I intend to focus on the portion of the new publication that deals with baptism.
In chapter 16, on pages 178 and 179, paragraph 17 states:
17 To survive the coming destruction, individuals need to prove their faith now. As we saw earlier, those who survived Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E. demonstrated beforehand their heartfelt rejection of wickedness and their devotion to pure worship. It is similar today. Before the destruction comes, individuals need to be “sighing and groaning”—deeply grieved at heart—over the wickedness of this world. And rather than hide their feelings, they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship. How can they do so? They need to react favorably to the preaching work that is being done today, to continue putting on a Christlike personality, to get baptized in symbol of their dedication to Jehovah, and to support Christ’s brothers loyally. (Ezek. 9:4; Matt. 25:34-40; Eph. 4:22-24; 1 Pet. 3:21) Only those who pursue such a course now—and who enter the great tribulation as pure worshippers—will be in a position to be marked for survival.
The question for the paragraph can, predictably, be answered by dutifully "studying" the paragraph to find the verbatim answer, and somehow indicating that you have found the pre-approved appropriate words ... think Word Search puzzles.
The Scriptures provided in support are very odd, though.
The verse from Ezekiel invites the reader to infer a second fulfillment never discussed in the Bible and to impose this as Scriptural fact, rather than as mere interpretive opinion from a group of men. The verse from Matthew can be fulfilled by literally anyone; Jesus is quoted as saying as much, explicitly. The verse from Ephesians is written to an established congregation of First Century Christians who were already long since baptized, and is no part of what Christians were ever told to preach to anyone.
That brings us to the verse from 1 Peter 3:21. It's the only one that mentions baptism, but it doesn't mention "dedication." It is impossible to read the dictionary definition of the word "dedication" and twist baptism, as discussed at 1 Peter 3:18-22, into meaning that.If what I am saying is new to you, or you have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses for a long time, please consider carefully whether you have ever seen a Scripture that states baptism is in symbol of dedication to Jehovah.
According to the Bible, Christian baptism is in symbol of reconciliation, not in symbol of dedication. Christians have been given no ministry of dedication (2 Corinthians 5:11-6:2), the Great Commission at Matthew 28:18-20 does not mention collecting dedications from anyone.
Reconciliation and dedication are two vastly different concepts.
From within the JW mindset, it makes sense that there would have to be lots of requirements before baptism, because one has so much to learn before they would be qualified to make a vow of dedication ... a vow the Bible nowhere establishes as a requisite for Christian baptism and one that is a custom invented by men.
When one adopts the concept of "reconciliation" as the capsule of Christian ministry, as Paul encourages (2 Corinthians 5:11-6:2), that is, as the summation in one word of the Great Commission Jesus gave to his followers, it become easy to understand how 3,000 were baptized in one day, and 5,000 were baptized another day, how the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized after a short chariot ride, and Cornelius along with all his assembled pagan guests and family were baptized after hearing fewer than 200 Greek words of preaching from Peter, how Lydia and the Philippian jailer were baptized without delay after very brief preaching ... because, Christian baptism is not a symbol of dedication. (Acts ... yeah, you can read the entire book, it won't kill you)
Matthew 11:27-30 depicts Jesus teaching that only those to whom the Son is willing to reveal the Father can ever come to know the Father, then immediately, Jesus commands, "Come to me ... I will refresh you. Take my yoke ... learn from me ... my yoke is kindly and my load is light."
2 Corinthians 5 also shows Jesus as the starting point for reconciliation to God.
Nowhere in the Bible is anyone ever required to make a specific declaration of dedication to God prior to their Christian baptism, that is, prior to baptism that is a request made to God for a good conscience. (1 Peter 3:18-22) Nowhere in the Bible is publicly confessing loyalty to any religion used as a test of one's fitness for baptism.
These fundamental ideas are simply not found in the Bible.
Hebrews 6:1-2 says the teaching on baptisms is among the primary doctrine about the Christ and calls this primary doctrine "a foundation." Jehovah's Witnesses have the basics wrong, the very foundation of Christianity.
Is it any wonder then, that they cannot get past their allegiance to a religion, when their entire concept of Christianity is founded upon that idolatrous basis?
And that's without even getting into the fact that no one can find qualifications set forth in the Bible by which any person can become "qualified" as an "unbaptized publisher" of the good news. "Unbaptized publisher" is a concept that is completely man-made and is one not found in First Century Christianity.
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Has anyone on here used this forum to announce they were out and revealed their real name?
by HiddenPimo injust wondering if anyone has ever posted their personal information and have proof that the borg is watching and sent the gestapo to get them?.
i will be announcing my resignation and da myself - and i am objectively looking at either doing it bud dwyer (not really like him but by extension) style at a meeting or an email blast or just giving a letter to the boe?.
any advice is appreciated.
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Afterburn
... doesn't accomplish much to help those still trapped inside! IMHO that is!— eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub, if I consider my life, time, and energy spent as one of Jehovah's Witnesses to have been wasted on far worse than nothing at all, why would I escape only to spend considerable life, time, and energy on the cultish religion I left, rotting like a diseased corpse behind me?
At first, I thought I might be able to get my wife out (now ex-wife) and I held out some hope I might be able to get my parents out, so I tried (unsuccessfully) to fade. That failed.
Once upon a time, in my life, I was on a quest to save the whole world of "ungodly mankind" from nothing much at all by convincing them to become a part of something pernicious and atrocious. I am not on a quest to save everybody, or even large groups of people, anymore. If you still have people in and you still have hope of reaching them, I understand why you want to, I did, too.
I have successfully helped out most of my closest friends. I have helped my brother (by blood) and his children to shift from POMI to POMO. I have tilted at all the windmills I have strength to confront among JWs.
Whether we are leading by example by directly shrinking their numbers, or whether we're doing battle against their promoted ideas, or whether we're banding together for support and fellowship, or whether we're letting the religion and the trauma it inflicted become a distant memory of how we once identified "self" before we knew better ... however someone breaks free and whatever their current intent, I'll celebrate with them, without judging them harshly. After all, they've survived a cult. However they need to cope is just fine with me.