Posts by Afterburn

19

Quick Story

by APieceOfShitNamedTate in

so one night i'm at a meeting.

it's the beginning of the meeting and a brother is up on stage introducing the parts for the night.

he's going through the parts and then he says, "...and apieceofshitnamedtate will be handling our bible highlights.".

Back when I was PIMI, I used to prepare thoroughly for talks #2 and #4 every week. Every. Week. So that I would be ready in case someone needed a substitute. I often gave talk #2 in the main auditorium and then talk #4 in the library, for 2nd School. I really believed that was an offering of service to God, helping a cult indoctrinate people who mostly did not prepare at all for that meeting. Now, I feel dirty about that despite appreciating what that did for my comfort with public speaking.

22

What Jesus' Return Would Mean for JWs, According to the Bible

by Afterburn in

on the last day, jesus returns, and 8,000,000 jehovah's witnesses are shocked that he didn't return invisibly.

remembering the account of stephen, they know if they can see him, they can speak directly to him, so they line up proudly to be rewarded for all they've done for his brothers.. "lord, lord," they happily cry out, "just look what all we have done in your name!".

"i know," jesus says, "i saw.

Afterburn

I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but Rattigan350 studiously avoided addressing the point I made regarding the cult's emphasis on a ministry of dedication to and on baptism into a religion rather than on the ministry Paul had been given of reconciled personal relationship with God and on baptism into Christ.

The former does not fulfill the commission found at Matthew 28:18-20.

The latter does.

The former does require extensive indoctrination into a religion's dogma prior to baptism, because a specific prayer of dedication would require that much knowledge and understanding.

The latter does not require any organized religion, at all, and only requires enough information to convince one that 1) a person has no personal relationship with God, and 2) there is a way to restore that relationship, open to all persons.

Which do we see happening at Acts 2:22-40?

What about the Ethiopian eunuch at Acts 8:26-40?

And then there is Acts 10:33-48, where Peter speaks less than 200 Greek words to an assembled group of Cornelius' family and friends, all of whom are baptized by holy spirit "while he was still speaking"; followed immediately by water baptism. Is that anything like JW baptism, at all? Which of them was required to publicly commit themselves to a religion?

Acts 16:14-15 and Acts 16:25-34 are two more examples; Lydia with her whole household, and the Philippian jailer with his entire family. The Agnostic Philippian certainly didn't meet any JW criteria for baptism, and never published the good news to anyone. Well into Paul's ministry throughout the known world, and long after there was already a congregation established in Philippi.

It is a fact, well known to the Governing Body, that there is no Scriptural justification, at all, for the concept of an unbaptized publisher of the good news among Christians.

It is a fact, well known to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, that there is no justification found anywhere in the Bible for any of their prerequisites for Christian baptism, most especially for a specific prayer of dedication as a requirement, nor any verbal commitment to a specific religion, nor to a verbal commitment to adhere to the teachings of any group of men.

They know that they are teaching falsehoods as truth about Christian baptism.

About one of the elementary things of the primary doctrine about the Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses teach many separate lies as truth.

Hebrews 6:1-2

Therefore, now that we have moved beyond the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works and faith in God, the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment.

22

What Jesus' Return Would Mean for JWs, According to the Bible

by Afterburn in

on the last day, jesus returns, and 8,000,000 jehovah's witnesses are shocked that he didn't return invisibly.

remembering the account of stephen, they know if they can see him, they can speak directly to him, so they line up proudly to be rewarded for all they've done for his brothers.. "lord, lord," they happily cry out, "just look what all we have done in your name!".

"i know," jesus says, "i saw.

Afterburn

No one prevents people from having a relationship with Jesus Christ, except there is no point in it. He is not the objective. He is a priest bringing people to Jehovah God. Israelites could have friendly relationships with the high priests, but the high priests were just a go between. The whole point was to bring them to God.

Rattigan350, no one "prevents" any one of Jehovah's Witnesses from doing anything, in the strictest legal sense. That's true enough, in the sense that your cult cannot be successfully sued in civil proceedings on that basis.

However, much like the Jews of Jesus' day, your cult's use of shunning is, as Insight On the Scriptures aptly states, "a very powerful weapon" to coerce people into conformance with a doctrine that rejects the position blatantly assigned to Jesus in the Bible.

I have a question for you, so that you can explain your cult's teachings more expansively for others reading here:

If "the whole point was to bring them to God," and if a personal relationship with Jesus was not the first objective in restoring an individual relationship with God, then, 1) why did Jesus repeatedly direct people to come to him and 2) why did Paul lie to Timothy when he said that Jesus (personally) was our only mediator in the process of restoring our individual relationship with God?

I think you've been lied to about what the Bible teaches on this point. If you believe otherwise, please explain these incongruities for the benefit of any others who might read this exchange between us.

22

What Jesus' Return Would Mean for JWs, According to the Bible

by Afterburn in

on the last day, jesus returns, and 8,000,000 jehovah's witnesses are shocked that he didn't return invisibly.

remembering the account of stephen, they know if they can see him, they can speak directly to him, so they line up proudly to be rewarded for all they've done for his brothers.. "lord, lord," they happily cry out, "just look what all we have done in your name!".

"i know," jesus says, "i saw.

Afterburn

Wow, Tenacious, thank you!

11

Is this guy making a lot of mistakes?

by rockemsockem in

i watched this video just a bit and from what i saw he made a lot of fundamental misstatements on jws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le5kqhf8fx0.

Afterburn

Vidiot and alanv,

What someone choose to do does not mean that they do so without coercive consequences.

What someone is allowed to do is permitted free from any coercive influences. It is important to plug that fact into how you are both evaluating whether JWs are "allowed" to talk with ex-JWs.

If it is allowed, there is nothing perceived as wrong with doing so, and no one will pressure a different choice from any position of authority. When it comes to how Jehovah's Witnesses officially state ex JWs are to be treated, there is no ambiguity whatsoever. They wield the harshest legal punishment the Pharisees had available under Roman law: shunning. This was the penalty for the man born blind that Jesus healed.

Insight On the Scriptures states that this form of punishment was "a very powerful weapon" to compel conformity with the legal and religious opinions of the Rabbis and the Pharisees.

Vidiot is correct that they will "counsel" anyone they discover to be socializing with an ex JW beyond "necessary family business" and, if that "counsel" is not applied, they will investigate and convene a Judicial Committee. If the "counsel" continues to be ignored, they will announce that the person who has continued socializing is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

In each case, the "counsel" takes the form of discussing the verse in 2 John that says, "... not even saying a greeting to such a man."

If this edict masquerading as "counsel" is ignored, they will apply the most extreme coercive force they have available ... it is the same as that wielded by the Pharisees.

22

What Jesus' Return Would Mean for JWs, According to the Bible

by Afterburn in

on the last day, jesus returns, and 8,000,000 jehovah's witnesses are shocked that he didn't return invisibly.

remembering the account of stephen, they know if they can see him, they can speak directly to him, so they line up proudly to be rewarded for all they've done for his brothers.. "lord, lord," they happily cry out, "just look what all we have done in your name!".

"i know," jesus says, "i saw.

Afterburn

Crazyguy2, I understand why you might perceive that as a problem. They do conflict, somewhat, don't they? But, what did Jesus say, according to the Bible? And, the entire letter to the Romans was not a prophecy offered in symbols about future events at a later time, but about how Christians should view things in general, no?

The letter of Romans literally states that no one should be judging one another about <drumroll!> opinions! What has the Governing Body stated their interpretations are? Oh, yes, that's right. Opinions. "Best surmises." They directly defy what Romans says when they judge others over differences of opinions, especially when they do so over opinions about interpretations, and Revelation says nothing at all to contradict that point made in Romans.

22

What Jesus' Return Would Mean for JWs, According to the Bible

by Afterburn in

on the last day, jesus returns, and 8,000,000 jehovah's witnesses are shocked that he didn't return invisibly.

remembering the account of stephen, they know if they can see him, they can speak directly to him, so they line up proudly to be rewarded for all they've done for his brothers.. "lord, lord," they happily cry out, "just look what all we have done in your name!".

"i know," jesus says, "i saw.

Afterburn

On the last day, Jesus returns, and 8,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses are shocked that he didn't return invisibly. Remembering the account of Stephen, they know if they can see him, they can speak directly to him, so they line up proudly to be rewarded for all they've done for his brothers.

"Lord, Lord," they happily cry out, "just look what all we have done in your name!"

"I know," Jesus says, "I saw. Your cult taught millions of people to ignore my repeated, crystal clear instructions to come to me. I do not know any of you, personally, because you have waited until now to speak directly to me. Did you not know that I am to be your judge? Did you not know that I began ruling as King of Kings and Lord of Lords in the first century? Did you not read any of the letters my disciples left for you?"

Elder Tireless, the oldest among them, a man of 97 years, all of them spent in faithful service to the religion, steps forward and with a shaking, unsteady voice says, meekly, "But Lord, did we not spread explanations of prophecy in your name? Did we not cast out unrepentant sinners from our midst in your name? Did we not silence all who presumptuously questioned your Faithful and Discreet Slave class in your name? Did we not preach to all the world the good news that you would eventually come to lovingly terminate the lives of billions of people so we could live in their houses, in your name? Did we not regularly meet together to partake of spiritual food you provided, and convince millions of people to join us, all in your name?"

Jesus shouts, "I did not command any of that! You have all rejected my commands in favor of the commands of men! You didn't even follow the most simple one, 'Come to me!' Even a small child can understand that command. Did I not say, 'Approach the kingdom of heavens as a child?' Who is it that you fed that was hungry? Who is it that you clothed that was naked? Who did you shelter in their need? Who was in prison that you visited? Only those from whom you also received something? Members of a mythical 'slave class' that you pretended I spoke about, from whom you believed you were receiving better truth than I could give you, by the teacher I told you that you must receive, the Holy Spirit? Or did you serve the least of these, my siblings? Did you serve those who could not possibly repay? Hypocrites! You literally shut up the kingdom of heavens before men, by removing from them a personal relationship with me! I am the narrow gate and the gatekeeper, did you not read? Or did you read ... and not get the sense of it?"

Kneeling close to Elder Tireless, Jesus quietly, and sternly says, "You personally judged, persecuted, and punished people for violating commands of mere men; for violating the opinions of men who falsely claimed to speak for me, literally, in place of me. Did you not read in the letter to the Romans that no one should be judging another over differences of opinion? But you did read it, and you ignored it, preferring instead the false stories of liars who spoke falsely in my name. Did you never read what my disciple Matthew wrote about that? Did you learn nothing at all from John recounting the blind man I healed, and how the Jews responded? You were never appointed by me to stand in judgment in my place, the Pharisees sat in Moses' seat of judgment exactly as you seated yourself in mine."

Jesus continues, as the crowd murmurs uncomfortably in dawning awareness of the accuracy of his words. Shifting his eyes among the elders he can most readily spot, "When did I ever breathe one single word about 'paradise earth' or 'two hopes?' You lied to the world about my good news of a reconciled relationship to God. And how dare you twist my words and those of my disciples to justify secret meetings of judgment, a thing that never once came into my heart to do to another human. Did you not read that you should judge nothing until the appointed time, and that I would be doing the judging? Did you not see Paul's counsel to Timothy that all reproof should be given before all onlookers? Did you not care that the Sanhedrin that convened to convict me falsely as a blasphemer, did so in direct violation of the law at a time when it would not be public? You imitated the Pharisees, not me, not my disciples. Did you have no fear that I would hold you in judgment for the cruelty you did in secret, in my name?"

He stands again, as a somber hush falls over everyone, tears streaming from Elder Tireless' old eyes. Only his sobs heard.

Jesus continues, speaking loudly enough for all to hear, "Worst, of all the things each of you did, you taught people that I was a false God, and that speaking directly to me would be an act of idolatry. I instructed everyone to come to me, to drink from me, to learn from me, to be refreshed by me. Repeatedly. Routinely. You taught them all to ignore me. Paul explained repeatedly that his ministry was one of reconciliation, through me as the mediator, and you publicly denied the truth of his words. Instead, you preached a message of dedication to a religion, the antithesis of my teachings. The first time I came, it was to end religions and to provide a way for each of you to have a reconciled personal relationship with God. That was my entire purpose in coming. Did you not read that I said 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life?' Did you not understand from this that I am the way of entry into the naos, into the very temple of God, through the curtain of my sacrificed flesh? Paul told you. Did you not read? Did you not understand that I am all three curtains through which the High Priest would annually pass, in addition to being your High Priest and King?"

With a deep sigh, Jesus finishes, "You know you are sinners, and all I told you that you needed to do was to come to me, personally, and seek from me a restored relationship with God. You and I would have worked out your personal salvation between us, individually. You did not seek me out for what I offered you. You never once approached the way of entry into the temple, you never even approached the narrow gate that leads to life. Because you never did so, your sins remain. I never knew you. Get away from me, you workers of iniquity."

According to the Bible, that is what Jesus' return would mean for Jehovah's Witnesses. I urge you, please don't take my word for it. I'm a stranger on the Internet. The full and irrefutable proof of my claim is right there in your own Bible.

Supporting Scriptures:

John 3
John 6-10
John 14-16
Matthew 7:13-23
Matthew 15
Matthew 28:18-20
Hebrews (the whole letter, paying attention to the timing of Jesus' commencing of role as King and High Priest)
2 Corinthians 5:11-6:2
1 Timothy 2:1-7
Matthew 23
Hebrews 10:5-25 (Yeah, yeah, I know, you just read it ... humor me)
Acts (the whole letter, looking carefully for any example of Christian baptism that required a prayer of dedication or any public declaration of loyalty to any religion)
Galatians 1:6-9
Romans (the whole letter, looking carefully for where anyone is authorized to judge besides Jesus)

These "books" were letters. Read them as what they were. Learn how first century Christians actively put into practice what they had been taught, and mark well where their practices differ from the practices of Jehovah's Witnesses. You will soon find that there is very little Scriptural support for any element of Christian worship as carried out by Jehovah's Witnesses. They are lying to the whole world. Their whole cult is based on twisted opinions of very few men applied to Scriptures.

DISCLAIMER: I am capable of observing what the Bible does and does not teach. Any writing of mine that discusses the Bible or that challenges JW teachings based on the Bible will always be presented from the perspective of someone who does believe the Bible is the infallible, inspired word of God.

38

So how "worldly" did you get after you left the "truth"

by greenhornet in

jw
friends

i don't drive a 4 door car.

lol.

i go to a local christian church.

Afterburn

Yes, fulano. I am no longer a Regular or Regular Auxiliary Pioneer.

Also, I am no longer a Ministerial Servant, I no longer conduct the weekly book study (which I'm not even sure they still have, anymore), I no longer read the Watchtower and Awake! or prepare for any meetings, I don't frequently volunteer for impromptu talks #2 or #4 in case the assigned person didn't show up.

They generally frown upon sweaty Leather Daddy Bears representing Jehovah's Witnesses on their stages.

5

Who Is He?

by APieceOfShitNamedTate in

jw
friends

who is this brother on an appeal committee @4:00?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nflfchtsca.

Afterburn

What they teach changes, constantly, so even if you did accept what they taught at one point in time, you would have to have committed to believe anything they might potentially teach in the future, no matter what they teach, which I certainly did not do at the time of my baptism at age 12.

21

Running Ahead of the Organization

by Sea Breeze in

jw
friends

that was a phrase that used to irritate me to no end.

good thing this woman wasn't a jw.

some people just can't wait.

Afterburn

When I was 16 years old, I asked the Circuit Overseer whenever the Organization published an explanation of prophecy that later turned out to be wrong, hadn't they run ahead of Jehovah, on the basis of Genesis 40:8? He really did not like that question, at all. Neither did my dad, the Presiding Overseer of our congregation, at the time.